Meet your new thread, same as the old thread.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
The opinions of the defenders of William Jefferson Clinton notwithstanding, perjury is indeed a crime.

Libby didn't deserve jail time and nor did Clinton. I'd also reinstate Clinton's law license. Lying in the context of a political witch hunt is fine in my book. I think Bubba and Scooter are swine. But that is what they are - professional swine, a/k/a politicians.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I think going by "Scooter" as an adult merits jail time.

Pantsing him in the White House cafeteria, yes. Snickering to his facee every time he is introduced to someone in your presence, definitely. Maybe even a coordinated spitball blitz in a staff meeting. But jail time?

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Are you fucking high? Do you really think Plame's "outing" that compromised a motherfucking thing about our national security? Because if you do I want $300 of what you're smoking, and I'll fly out to get it.

Valerie Plame was NOBODY. Nothing. This whole thing was a political charade and fucking joke and even the Democrats involved snickered and admitted as much. Political theatre. Now we're seeing the second to last act.

Dude, maybe she wasn't really on active duty at the time she was outed by Novak, but in the past -- and there is no dispute about this, is there? -- she absolutely had been under cover. And her cover was as an employee of CIA front companies overseas. Then she was outed, and now everyone in the world knows that those foreign companies were CIA fronts, and that the people that she met in foreign lands are all now presumed to have been sources or agents of the Company.

If Al Gore's chief of staff had burned a former undercover CIA agent or analyst or whatever because Bill didn't like the way that her spouse testified against NAFTA or welfare reform or gays in the military, the dude -- and I mean Bill -- would be in Leavenworth.

Who, exactly, among the Democrats invovled, have ever said that it was a "charade" or a "joke"?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Yes. Obama didn't say he was convicted for leaking -- he said he leaked. Which is true.

He'd have done more damage leaking the name of Pentagon plumber. She was nobody, and her husband was even less. A pair of attention whores scheming for tickets to Vanity Fair's Oscar party.

The only sillier joke was Ken Starr's pathetic Jim Garrison-like odyssey against the Clintons.

I think Scooter's eventual pardon is a perfect result. Flipping off the whores who engage the system to their political ends seems the natural proper end.

Fuck Patrick Fitzgerald. Humorless goddamned stiff. He can concentrate on wasting our money putting Conrad Black away forever now.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Not Bob
Dude, maybe she wasn't really on active duty at the time she was outed by Novak, but in the past -- and there is no dispute about this, is there? -- she absolutely had been under cover. And her cover was as an employee of CIA front companies overseas. Then she was outed, and now everyone in the world knows that those foreign companies were CIA fronts, and that the people that she met in foreign lands are all now presumed to have been sources or agents of the Company.

If Al Gore's chief of staff had burned a former undercover CIA agent or analyst or whatever because Bill didn't like the way that her spouse testified against NAFTA or welfare reform or gays in the military, the dude -- and I mean Bill -- would be in Leavenworth.

Who, exactly, among the Democrats invovled, have ever said that it was a "charade" or a "joke"?

For God's sake, Bob. The whole Democratic establishment looked at it like some tawdry sideshow. Wilson never had any credibility.

I recall her "outing" was so far after the fact that there was no damage done as a result. Which kind of explains why we never heard about any such substantial collateral damage accruing from this horrible national secrity breach.

The dude would not be in Leavenworth, but as I said, this isn;t partisan. It was awful when done to Clinton and wasteful when done to Libby. Both get a pass in my eyes.

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by taxwonk
I suppose I should be more bothered about this than I am. I'm not really all that disturbed that Scooter won't do time. If I thought jail would have gotten hom to roll on his boss and his boss's boss, then I'd be pissed. But Scooter is probably more of a stand-up guy than Big Pussy. I don't think he'd have flipped.

I'm not bothered by the fact that Libby won't do time. Anyone who thinks that he wasn't following orders is nuts. And he has paid and is paying a price for what he did. I think that commuting his sentence is the least that W could do.

That puts the blame right where it should be, and the Administration should pay the price for what it did. Because Bush and Cheney disliked what Wilson said -- and I am not saying that Wilson isn't a self-serving blowhard -- they burned his wife and everyone that she had ever worked with undercover, and all of the sources and agents that her cover companies had ever dealt with -- merely to discredit him. The only comparison I can think of is the break-in of the office of Daniel Ellsberg's shrink by Nixon's people in order to find some way of discrediting the leak of the Pentagon Papers.

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
For God's sake, Bob. The whole Democratic establishment looked at it like some tawdry sideshow. Wilson never had any credibility.

Wilson is not the issue. Plame is.

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I recall her "outing" was so far after the fact that there was no damage done as a result. Which kind of explains why we never heard about any such substantial collateral damage accruing from this horrible national secrity breach.

Who would we hear it from, Sebby? You expect that appointees of the Administration would tell us that its actions damaged national security? Please.

Bottom line -- the Administration burned Plame to get Wilson, and didn't care about any collateral damage that burning her caused. All the self-serving, after-the-fact, rationalization in the world doesn't change that fact. And Clinton got roasted for firing the White House Travel Office -- how would TVRWC react to Bill burning a non-official cover? Ask Hank -- he posted something the other day that accused Bill of killing Barbara Olsen on 9/11.

[SlaveNoMore]

Slothrop
Apart from leaking classified information about Valerie Plame? Or are those childhood head injuries catching up with you?

Oh, you mean the left-wing, made-up stuff. Right.

Whereas Libby was convicted of perjury, telling - under oath - different time frames of certain events.

Russert was guilty of the same offense, but at least Fitzgerald spared him the indignity of a trial

[SlaveNoMore]

Not Bob
Wilson is not the issue. Plame is.

The Senate panel determined that Plame recommended Wilson for the gig that served as the initial platform for Wilson's lies, so I beg to differ.

[SlaveNoMore]

Not Bob
Dude, maybe she wasn't really on active duty at the time she was outed by Novak, but in the past -- and there is no dispute about this, is there? -- she absolutely had been under cover. And her cover was as an employee of CIA front companies overseas. Then she was outed, and now everyone in the world knows that those foreign companies were CIA fronts, and that the people that she met in foreign lands are all now presumed to have been sources or agents of the Company.

If Al Gore's chief of staff had burned a former undercover CIA agent or analyst or whatever because Bill didn't like the way that her spouse testified against NAFTA or welfare reform or gays in the military, the dude -- and I mean Bill -- would be in Leavenworth.

Who, exactly, among the Democrats invovled, have ever said that it was a "charade" or a "joke"?

What would Clinton have done if a former member of Reagan's cabinet stole [and destroyed] classfied documents from the National Archives?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Not Bob
Wilson is not the issue. Plame is.



Who would we hear it from, Sebby? You expect that appointees of the Administration would tell us that its actions damaged national security? Please.

Bottom line -- the Administration burned Plame to get Wilson, and didn't care about any collateral damage that burning her caused. All the self-serving, after-the-fact, rationalization in the world doesn't change that fact. And Clinton got roasted for firing the White House Travel Office -- how would TVRWC react to Bill burning a non-official cover? Ask Hank -- he posted something the other day that accused Bill of killing Barbara Olsen on 9/11.

What damage Bob? What damage? Find me a blog that outlines the valuable operatives we lost. Oh, there is none. The best you'll find is some partisan rag overplaying the non-existent damages into some sort of loss. If there was real damage we'd have heard of it in the national media for years. The damages were always the missing part of this story. This is akin to a trial where you've got really good liability and No Fucking Damages. Libby got a light sentence, the equivalent of the type of judgment you or I would get bringing a solid liability case with an illusory loss to be "recovered."

You mean to tell me the Admin somehow concealed the extent of the damages? Bullshit. Plame told everyone how many important networks were lost. The problem was there weren't any.

I'm not Hank. I think this sort of shit was wrong when it was done to Clinton as well. If I could, I'd jail Ken Starr.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
What would Clinton have done if a former member of Reagan's cabinet stole [and destroyed] classfied documents from the National Archives?

He'd have let it slide because he was smarter than everyone in DC right now.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
What damage Bob? What damage? Find me a blog that outlines the valuable operatives we lost. Oh, there is none. The best you'll find is some partisan rag overplaying the non-existent damages into some sort of loss. If there was real damage we'd have heard of it in the national media for years. The damages were always the missing part of this story. This is akin to a trial where you've got really good liability and No Fucking Damages. Libby got a light sentence, the equivalent of the type of judgment you or I would get bringing a solid liability case with an illusory loss to be "recovered."

You mean to tell me the Admin somehow concealed the extent of the damages? Bullshit. Plame told everyone how many important networks were lost. The problem was there weren't any.

I'm not Hank. I think this sort of shit was wrong when it was done to Clinton as well. If I could, I'd jail Ken Starr.

Whatever. There are thousands of slimebags sitting in jail right now that deserve a walk more than Scooter Libby does.

I should have known that a man that gave George Tenet a Presidential Medal of Freedom for intelligence work leading up to Iraq would also give a walk to Libby. Accountability for fuck ups--especially for fuck ups having to do with this god awful war--isn't really the calling card of this administration.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Whatever. There are thousands of slimebags sitting in jail right now that deserve a walk more than Scooter Libby does.

I should have known that a man that gave George Tenet a Presidential Medal of Freedom for intelligence work leading up to Iraq would also give a walk to Libby. Accountability for fuck ups--especially for fuck ups having to do with this god awful war--isn't really the calling card of this administration.

73% of Americans Unable to Believe This Shit

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
What would Clinton have done if a former member of Reagan's cabinet stole [and destroyed] classfied documents from the National Archives?

I don't defend what Sandy Berger did, and I don't think that prosecuting him was a partisan witch-hunt.

Your turn -- why is it ok to burn Plame to get Wilson? What about every one else who ever had any dealings with Brewster-Jennings (the company that, thanks to the decsion to smear Wilson, everyone now knows was a CIA front)?