Patting the wrists, rolling the eyes.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by sgtclub
But you are missing my point. Our civil rights and basic human dignities at home are neither guaranteed nor written in stone. It is up to us to defend them.

I started off this discussion saying that I was torn on the issue because the stakes in war are so high that a win at all costs attitude may be necessary. Let me throw this back at you. Would it be better for us to not torture, even if that meant losing the fight and, in turn, our civil rights and basic human dignities?

This is not at all close to the situation we were confronted with. Let's dispense with the fun little hypos and stick with the facts.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by sgtclub
But you are missing my point. Our civil rights and basic human dignities at home are neither guaranteed nor written in stone. It is up to us to defend them.

I started off this discussion saying that I was torn on the issue because the stakes in war are so high that a win at all costs attitude may be necessary. Let me throw this back at you. Would it be better for us to not torture, even if that meant losing the fight and, in turn, our civil rights and basic human dignities?

Let me suggest that if we view them as being dispensable, we are in the process of losing the the fight. If we truly believe we can torture people under any circumstances and that such behavior should be condoned by society, what basic human dignity is left? We have tossed it aside in the name of expedience.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
This is not at all close to the situation we were confronted with. Let's dispense with the fun little hypos and stick with the facts.

This discussion isn't about the current situation. You have made it that way because it is convenient for you to do so.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Let me suggest that if we view them as being dispensable, we are in the process of losing the the fight. If we truly believe we can torture people under any circumstances and that such behavior should be condoned by society, what basic human dignity is left? We have tossed it aside in the name of expedience.

The one guy caught in Pakistan- the no. 3 guy- supposedly has given up a good deal of info that rooted out cells here and in Europe. assume he was tortured to give up the info (I do). Is that acceptable because he clearly had good info? Does it matter that it was likely Paki agents doing the torture (ie is it just that we're above it)?

Should we take a "fruit of the poisened tree" approach to torture-induced info?

Whether ex-car mechanics from des Moines should have been molesting prisoners isn't at issue. They shouldn't have, but where we are at in the world right now- at least strains some of those old rule, i think.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by bilmore
And I think the point is that the people at Abu Ghraib (sp?) were not given that discretion. But, war being a bloody unorganized mess, they took it anyway. And, are in the process of being punished. There's a large moral difference between authorizing a thing, and failing to stop a thing. They're being treated the same here, because it's convenient for the partisan argument.

I certainly agree with your second point, on the large moral difference between authorizing a thing and failing to stop a thing (assuming said failure was inadvertent and/or negligent rather than reckless or willful). Most of the incidents we've heard of to date, particularly those involving the regular infantry and/or reserve/NG units (i.e. folks not well-trained/prepared for the job) seem to fall into that category.

That said, "failing to stop a thing" which one should stop (or minimize) can be a significant failure -- as I think it was not only in Abu Ghraib but in too many instances in this campaign and related efforts. (After all, its all one big War on Terror -- right?)

On your first point -- that they took discretion not given by the command -- that's probably true wrt Abu Ghraib and (like I said) most other incidents.

What troubles me most, though, Bilmore are the indications we have seen that there are individuals and/or units -- including some who floated in and out of Abu Ghraib - who _have_ been given that discretion to torture and kill prisoners.

In my view, too many bodies have been and continue to be turning up, reportedly in connection with "contractors" or "other government agencies" or SOF, for it to fall into the category of "shit happens without some direction from above." There are too many little news blurbs about investigations begun months and years after the fact that go nowhere, or are closed with a finding or no misconduct despite prisoner deaths. Remember the congressional testimony wrt Gitmo a couple years back that "the gloves are off now"? Once you take them off its hard to get them back on.

S_A_M

P.S. I don't go nearly as far as Taxwonk on the prosecution issue -- but I really think that if the Abu Ghraib troubles had not been so politically incendiary (and the CO had not been so aggresssive and media-savvy), the military sure as hell would have done much worse to General Karpinski. Like it or not (and I think its mostly good), senior commanders are held accountable for such complete breakdowns of discipline in their units, especially when there are systemic problems up and down the chain as Taguba noted. She wasn't even relieved of command.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by bilmore
Bullshit. This is entirely a partisan issue. Everyone who hates us for Abu G already hated us for Iraq, and for Afghanistan, and probably for France. No minds were changed; all that happened was a new label was provided. In the grand scheme of things, this is a talking point for one party, and nothing more.

That's just nuts.

S_A_M

[Watchtower]

Originally posted by sgtclub
But you are missing my point. Our civil rights and basic human dignities at home are neither guaranteed nor written in stone. It is up to us to defend them.

I started off this discussion saying that I was torn on the issue because the stakes in war are so high that a win at all costs attitude may be necessary. Let me throw this back at you. Would it be better for us to not torture, even if that meant losing the fight and, in turn, our civil rights and basic human dignities?

Are you at all concerned here with your/our soul?

I am glad you use the term "we" and "us" throughout your posts, because (I believe) it means you agree with me that whatever is done is being done not by a few individuals whom we can wash our hands of, but by "us", whether directly or indirectly.

I believe there are acts done under stress and in crises that can be and should be forgiven, but cannot imagine us as a country deciding that torture is what or who we are. If we torture to protect "civil rights" or "human dignity", we are simply choosing to destroy those things ourselves rather than let others destroy them.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Actually, I did read it. And what's more, quit ducking the point of my post. You are claiming that a little torture is no big deal. Where the fuck does that come from?

I am claiming that, in the context of a war, the claims of torture I've seen are a relatively small deal. I think I've typed that word "context" several times.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by sgtclub
This discussion isn't about the current situation. You have made it that way because it is convenient for you to do so.

The current situation is that the military is stonewalling on providing information regarding abuse of prisoners. If the military was truly interesting in clearing the air, they would not be doing this.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Let me suggest that if we view them as being dispensable, we are in the process of losing the the fight. If we truly believe we can torture people under any circumstances and that such behavior should be condoned by society, what basic human dignity is left? We have tossed it aside in the name of expedience.

I think this is a idealistic view.

[bilmore]

In more critical, timely news, Judge Greer (of Schiavo fame) was once a roommate of Jim Morrison.

[bilmore]

Doll mistaken for alien

A burnt rubber doll was mistaken for a badly injured alien and taken to a hospital in Brazil.

It happened after people in Aracruz found a burnt 'body' on the ground after seeing a fireball fall from the sky.

A police spokesman told Terra Noticias Populares: "Many people were terrified thinking that an alien invasion was taking place.

"They thought the doll was a burnt ET and more than 50 people called the station."

The 'alien' was taken to the local hospital where doctors soon confirmed it was a burnt rubber doll.

A hospital spokesman said: "It was obviously a practical joke but we wonder who would do that in such a small and quiet town."

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Watchtower
Are you at all concerned here with your/our soul?

I am glad you use the term "we" and "us" throughout your posts, because (I believe) it means you agree with me that whatever is done is being done not by a few individuals whom we can wash our hands of, but by "us", whether directly or indirectly.

I believe there are acts done under stress and in crises that can be and should be forgiven, but cannot imagine us as a country deciding that torture is what or who we are. If we torture to protect "civil rights" or "human dignity", we are simply choosing to destroy those things ourselves rather than let others destroy them.

I'm concerned with winning. Everything else is just theory. My soul would not be very happy living in a dictatorship.

[Watchtower]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I'm concerned with winning. Everything else is just theory. My soul would not be very happy living in a dictatorship.

Does someone have a Church Lady sock (or does this reference just show my age)? Eternity is a long time, and the guy with the horns is quite a dictator.

I thought we were talking theoretically. I find that as long as we are talking theoretically, it's much easier to be idealistic.


(By the way, as I catch up, I must say I am pretty offended by the Terri Schiavo socks, which I'm sure was intentional. I trust everyone here does realize that just because someone is born again, it doesn't mean we froth at the mouth).

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Watchtower
Does someone have a Church Lady sock (or does this reference just show my age)? Eternity is a long time, and the guy with the horns is quite a dictator.

I believe (perhaps through experience) in hell on Earth, but not in the afterlife.