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Old 06-29-2005, 07:43 PM   #1771
Tyrone Slothrop
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Originally posted by ltl/fb
The threesome. But I want the soundtrack removed.
As a non-participant, I want a NDA with a provision specifically referring to internet chat boards.
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Old 06-29-2005, 07:45 PM   #1772
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Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
As a non-participant, I want a NDA with a provision specifically referring to internet chat boards.
What?
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Old 06-29-2005, 07:50 PM   #1773
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good points all. I shall report back. I might flip, I might build. I might build one lot, sell, build the next. I look forward to fucking over the bank, the contractors, the tenants (actually it would be buyers) and everybody else who got near him.

either which way I have to do something. else. I can't do this for another 35 years. Plus as Slave knows, I still harbour bitterness about the bar deal I got fucked out of and need to clean the taste of cowpies out of my mouth.
FWIW, this is what I've seen:

Guys who flip land do well with least annoyance, but its tricky, because you need to cover carrying costs with no cash flow from the property.

Guys who put up cheap boxes (Wal Marts, drug store chains - nice, fat long term leases) do well. A Rite Aid can be a fucking sweet cash machine.

Mini mall guys have problems (shit tenants, lousy leases).

Residential development is a pain unless you're just flipping lots. Don't get into building homes. That shit can become a nightmare.

YMMV
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Old 06-29-2005, 07:53 PM   #1774
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Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
FWIW, this is what I've seen:

Guys who flip land do well with least annoyance, but its tricky, because you need to cover carrying costs with no cash flow from the property.

Guys who put up cheap boxes (Wal Marts, drug store chains - nice, fat long term leases) do well. A Rite Aid can be a fucking sweet cash machine.

Mini mall guys have problems (shit tenants, lousy leases).

Residential development is a pain unless you're just flipping lots. Don't get into building homes. That shit can become a nightmare.

YMMV
Why aren't you doing any of the lucrative ones so that you can leave the profession you hate so much?
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Old 06-29-2005, 08:09 PM   #1775
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Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
No, it doesn't. First, Kennedy's concurrence makes pretty clear that majority rule is not always fine. Second, the public/private distinction doesn't have much to do with this majority rule idea.
Those one-justice concurrences may provide succor to some, but in the long run they tend to matter less and less, and one side wins out.

The majority rule issue certainly does. As I made the point weeks ago, and again today, ensuring a public use places real limits on what can be taken, because it actually requires payment by the government and, thus, the citizens. If the government simply becomes a broker to facilitate (i.e., coerce) trades between the less fortunate and the ravenous developer, there are no limits to what could happen. And as long as a majority of people are confident their property won't be taken in that way, it can continue.

Then again, maybe counter-majoritarian values aren't so cool. Ask the christians.
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Old 06-29-2005, 08:10 PM   #1776
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Originally posted by ltl/fb
Why aren't you doing any of the lucrative ones so that you can leave the profession you hate so much?
I thought lawyering was something Coltr . . .

oh, wait.
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Old 06-29-2005, 08:13 PM   #1777
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Quote:
Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
FWIW, this is what I've seen:

Guys who flip land do well with least annoyance, but its tricky, because you need to cover carrying costs with no cash flow from the property.

Guys who put up cheap boxes (Wal Marts, drug store chains - nice, fat long term leases) do well. A Rite Aid can be a fucking sweet cash machine.

Mini mall guys have problems (shit tenants, lousy leases).

Residential development is a pain unless you're just flipping lots. Don't get into building homes. That shit can become a nightmare.

YMMV
I have a line on the first, cheap property that for a variety of specific reasons will appreciate well beyond the market for the next 5 years no matter what I do.

I have a sort of line on a combo of 2-3. Awesome commercial property. Next door to recently rehabbed commercial district that is now trendy. This is the next block that will go but it is still priced with a premium to be realized.

I have considered residential on the first cheap property, but I could always hold and just make 20% a year on my money.
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Old 06-29-2005, 08:14 PM   #1778
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Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Those one-justice concurrences may provide succor to some, but in the long run they tend to matter less and less, and one side wins out.
Maybe so, but here Kennedy was the deciding vote.

Quote:
The majority rule issue certainly does. As I made the point weeks ago, and again today, ensuring a public use places real limits on what can be taken, because it actually requires payment by the government and, thus, the citizens. If the government simply becomes a broker to facilitate (i.e., coerce) trades between the less fortunate and the ravenous developer, there are no limits to what could happen. And as long as a majority of people are confident their property won't be taken in that way, it can continue.
I agree that if Kennedy's vision of meaningful review and the specific facts limiting the Court's holding are ignored, the decision becomes much broader. And if you sell a Camaro without any brakes, it's much more dangerous.
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Old 06-29-2005, 08:21 PM   #1779
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Originally posted by ltl/fb
Why aren't you doing any of the lucrative ones so that you can leave the profession you hate so much?
the trick is pulling the trigger on your first deal. Once you make the leap, succeed or fail, you are in the game.

Like Bush when he went into the oil business.
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Old 06-29-2005, 08:30 PM   #1780
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Originally posted by Penske_Account
Like Bush when he went into the oil business.
For your sake, I hope not.
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Old 06-29-2005, 08:39 PM   #1781
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Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Not so much. Kennedy has given litigants and courts something real to hang their hat on if they want to challenge a local government decision.

Kennedy, Schmennedy.


The lower courts that are going to decide 99% of these cases in the next ten years are going to decide them based on the opinion. Kennedy's concurrence will make an interesting footnote, and his conflicting view may be decisive if and when another test case reaches the Supremes, but it will make no difference in the real day-to-day battles that will be fought in the lower courts.
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Old 06-29-2005, 08:45 PM   #1782
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Originally posted by Penske_Account
I have a line on the first, cheap property that for a variety of specific reasons will appreciate well beyond the market for the next 5 years no matter what I do.

I have a sort of line on a combo of 2-3. Awesome commercial property. Next door to recently rehabbed commercial district that is now trendy. This is the next block that will go but it is still priced with a premium to be realized.

I have considered residential on the first cheap property, but I could always hold and just make 20% a year on my money.
This article might interest you.

My Tower of Bubble
Deciphering the babble about imminent collapse
by Carol Lloyd, special to SF Gate

Friday, June 24, 2005


Carol Lloyd
Surreal Estate

Lately, bubble babble has intensified from background noise to a veritable roar of warnings from experts and everyone else who still has two disinterested neurons they can rub together.

Even though most people probably haven't endorsed The Economist's recent declaration that this is the "biggest bubble in history" or UCLA Anderson Forecast's prediction that the inevitable pop will send the economy into a recession, it appears that all the bubble talk is giving Mo and Mary Mortgage some heartburn.

Last week, Hitwise, an "online competitive intelligence service," noted that among major search engines such as Google, Yahoo! and MSN Search, searches on "real estate bubble" and "housing bubble" skyrocketed 311 percent and 174 percent respectively compared to the prior week.

Though the "experts" (a.k.a. industry whores) may still talk about how Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan's choice of the word froth to characterize the real estate market could be construed as "effervescence," even many insiders are finally relenting and suggesting that the writing is on the drywall.

On Monday, for example, The Wall Street Journal reported on Fannie Mae's presentation to the National Association of Home Builders, which warned of regional crashes within the United States. Because the most bubbly markets are also the most populous ones, and therefore make up such a large share of the total market, any local busts could have national implications.

It may not happen next week or even the next year, and it may not happen in a flash from Zeus' bolt in a 20 percent tumble, but the evidence is undeniable: Many real estate markets around the globe are being driven to the precipice the way a drunk 14-year-old video game addict might drive a Humvee on Devil's Slide: It's an accident waiting to happen.

Here are but a few of the salient facts that now have made the global real estate market more surreal than ever.

Mortgage Gambling

A record number of people -- more than 70 percent in the Bay Area in 2004 and 31 percent nationwide -- are buying real estate with interest-only adjustable loans. What's more scary, mortgage lenders have successfully sold many home buyers on "negative amortization" loans -- in which home owners pay less than the interest due and therefore go deeper into debt every year.

According to Fitch Ratings, loans with negative amortization accounted for 5 percent of the nation's home loans in 2004. With the rising popularity of real estate roulette, The New York Times recently reported that in 2007, about 12 percent of the nation's mortgage debt will adjust, most likely upward. This trend could have a significant impact on not only those people with skyrocketing mortgage payments but also their neighbors who have banked on their home providing them with a retirement nest egg.

Only in the Snob Belt?

It's long been noted by all but the most blinkered boosters that in coastal areas with a high percentage of affluent residents and cultural attractions that have seen the most appreciation, prices are overinflated. But now there are signs that the disease clusters are spreading into a nationwide epidemic. Last week, The Las Vegas Review-Journal reported that the price of an acre of land in the Las Vegas Valley rose 55 percent, from $274,200 to $423,800, driven by new-construction condo fever and a perception that land is, uh, limited.

Such prices, however, are actually misleadingly low. During this quarter, the U.S. Bureau of Land Management sold a 1,700-acre parcel for $289,000, greatly bringing down the average. Excluding this transaction, the average price per acre of raw desert land is around $511,000.

And, according to an article in U.S. News and World Report, Mississippi, one of the nation's poorest states, is experiencing a boom in the coastal areas as a flood of condo developers flee from overpriced Florida markets. And according to the Billings, Mont., Billings Gazette, real estate agents are experiencing a "busy" time. In the last month, the average cost of a new or existing home in town shot up 10 percent, to $170,000. In the last year, homes appreciated 21 percent.

But Those in the Know Are Still Bullish, Right?

Well, not all of them. Douglas Duncan, chief economist for the Mortgage Bankers Association, announced in a May 28 article in the Los Angeles Times that he is getting out of real estate. "I'm going to rent for a while," he reportedly said, explaining that he would sell his suburban Washington home and move into an apartment. The newspaper also profiled Mark A.R. Kleiman, a professor of public policy at the UCLA School of Public Affairs, who sold his 2,700-square-foot, four-bedroom home on Mulholland Drive and leased a two-bedroom apartment in Brentwood to wait out the madness.

It's a Real Mad World

If all this number crunching only lulls you to sleep, it's important to take note of the joyful inanity that often accompanies businesses predicated on get-rich-quick schemes and the simultaneous attempt to institutionalize their idiocy. Condo developers from Miami to Los Angeles have been wooing investors with massive carnivalesque parties and fancy sales offices in their unfinished developments. Why? Because flipping -- buying and quickly selling homes or condos for a profit -- isn't only for acrobats or high-risk entrepreneurs anymore.

Once, flipping was a relatively unusual way to make money in the real estate market. Even people who used that term in the early days of the strategy typically remodeled the place. But now that the prices for unbuilt condos are rising so quickly that holding a property for only a few days can mean a profit, every two-bit investor is getting into the act. Recently, the practice has become popular in steamy markets such as Florida as investors buy preconstruction condos, then sell them when they are finished for absurdly jacked-up prices.

Now, flippers even have their own dedicated real estate company dedicated to their interests: Condoflip.com (patent pending), "where buyers, flippers, brokers and developers come together." The Miami-based company, which will take a third-party cut of any transactions, plans to open franchises in eight cities, including Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Dallas and New York.

Pssssss

Even as the band of giddy idiots dances deep into the night, some already hear the whispers of leakage -- both here and abroad. Last week, The Boston Globe reported that in Middlesex County, foreclosure filings leaped 34 percent in the first five months of this year over the same period in 2004 and that in 10 out of 14 counties in Massachusetts, foreclosures rates have risen. In addition, Housing Bubble, a blog dedicated to all thing bubblicious, noted that, according to a Las Vegas real estate Web site that enables searches of reduced listings, 6.9 percent of the Multiple Listing Service's 16,346 listings had their prices reduced last week.

On the other side of the planet, the signs are less subtle. In Australia, where house prices have soared 56 percent in the past three years, The Age reported that in Victoria, median house prices have already dropped 4.9 percent, to $352,000, compared to the first quarter of last year. For many observers, this figure may sound mild, but for those who bought at the top of the market, it could represent 50 percent of their equity. And in Shanghai, where prices have skyrocketed in recent years, local media reported that prices for some new developments dropped by one-fifth almost overnight after China instated new taxes to cool the overheated market.

So, what's my recommendation? Don't panic. In fact, don't give this article another thought. And, pleeease, don't do anything -- because here's the pisser: Even as I write this, I'm in escrow on a house I can't afford. And I know I'm not alone. The logic of a bubble defies even those who know better. I'm not trying to make money; I just want to break even -- and I am convinced I'm going to be different, that, actually, I got a good deal, a deal that if I waited only a few months, I really wouldn't be able to afford. In the face of a future with narrowing job opportunities and gutted Social Security, home owners such as myself have placed their faith in real estate as insurance from a penniless dotage. No matter how much I read, how much I know, it still feels infinitely safer than many other options.

A reader of the blog The Housing Bubble 2 put it well: "A house addiction, you know it isn't good for you, but you still do it, freaking weird."
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Old 06-29-2005, 08:50 PM   #1783
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Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
For your sake, I hope not.

Dude, in a decade I'll own the Mariners and in two I'll be challenging Chelsea for the Presidency.

You're either for me or for the terrorists!
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Old 06-29-2005, 08:54 PM   #1784
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Kennedy, Schmennedy.


The lower courts that are going to decide 99% of these cases in the next ten years are going to decide them based on the opinion. Kennedy's concurrence will make an interesting footnote, and his conflicting view may be decisive if and when another test case reaches the Supremes, but it will make no difference in the real day-to-day battles that will be fought in the lower courts.
If you were litigating one of those cases, and were arguing that the deal was a sweetheart deal for a developer, you would be all over that Kennedy concurrence like Bush with the 9/11 references, and it would certainly give you a hook with the trial court.
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Old 06-29-2005, 08:55 PM   #1785
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spanky
pssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
I don't believe in the bubble. Definitely not a national bubble. I'm a Reaganite. It's morning in America. I live in a shiny house on a hill.

Assuming the worst case scenario, I always have my madd lawyerin skilz to fall back on. And my wife could go back to work.
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