All Hank, all the time.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I call bullshit.

Then explain the wall they trew up around it and around the West Bank, lierally in some places, figuratively in others. Explain the regular military incursions every time they declared the Palestinian Authority ineffective and the missle attacks. Explain why a peace-loving nation just bombed a civilain airport for the second time.

You can call bullshit, I can see the bodies buried under it.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
King David? What country was he king of?

Judea, a land that was populated by Jews, Phoenicians (Palestinians), Chaldeans, and Babylonians, Persians, and a host of others.

The Hotel of course, was a landmark in a British Protectorate.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Then explain the wall they trew up around it and around the West Bank, lierally in some places, figuratively in others. Explain the regular military incursions every time they declared the Palestinian Authority ineffective and the missle attacks. Explain why a peace-loving nation just bombed a civilain airport for the second time.

You can call bullshit, I can see the bodies buried under it.

No venom- stay on topic- how was Israel forced politcally to leave Gaza?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Here, let me test your allegiance to Hank. Find Israel's desire for peace in their statement that they are going to "bomb Lebanon back to 1982."

I find no desire for peace in that. I find a desire to force Hezbollah to stop kidnapping soldiers and launching rockets into Israel, and I find a desire to force Lebanon to act like a sovereign country and assert its right to have a monopoly on military force within its borders.

Israel gave up Gaza because they were forced to by political exigencies, not because they felt it would lead to peace.

I believe that both were part of it. If the only concern were maintaining a Jewish majority, Israel could have taken other options -- like denying votes to Palestinians, or mass deportations. I am not suggesting that Israel would or should have done this.... but what would, say, Iran have done?

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
No venom- stay on topic- how was Israel forced politcally to leave Gaza?

Israel agreed to withdraw from Gaza under US pressure. The move broke up the governing coalition and nearly brought the government down.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
I find no desire for peace in that. I find a desire to force Hezbollah to stop kidnapping soldiers and launching rockets into Israel, and I find a desire to force Lebanon to act like a sovereign country and assert its right to have a monopoly on military force within its borders.

"We're going to bomb your civilian airport because you need to learn to exercise more military power within your borders."

Hey, it might work.

I believe that both were part of it. If the only concern were maintaining a Jewish majority, Israel could have taken other options -- like denying votes to Palestinians, or mass deportations. I am not suggesting that Israel would or should have done this.... but what would, say, Iran have done?

Mass deportations would not have been tolerated by the world community and would have increased hostilities. And Israel did not withdraw from Gaza because they wanted to keep a Jewish majority inb Israel. The withdrawal was the only possible move because the Palestinians will not accept anything less than their own independent state, just as Israel insists on its own independent state.

What makes the problem so intractable is that both sides want the same territory for their independent state and both sides have a colorable claim to the land.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by taxwonk
"We're going to bomb your civilian airport because you need to learn to exercise more military power within your borders."

How do you define civilian airport? What percentage supplying terrorists turns it into a target- because what I'm reading there's a decent percent of that going on there.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Israel agreed to withdraw from Gaza under US pressure. The move broke up the governing coalition and nearly brought the government down.

there has been US pressure for years- you don't think Clinton tried to get them out of Gaza? and the second sentence of your post shows that it was a brave move- and a studied choice- not an unavoidable decision forced by Daddy US.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by taxwonk
"We're going to bomb your civilian airport because you need to learn to exercise more military power within your borders."

Hey, it might work.

I'm having a hard time understanding the justification for the bombing of the Beirut airport. If the notion is that the (weak) government of Lebanon should exert some kind of influence over Hezbollah, and that bombing the airport will induce the government to exert such pressure, how is that different in principle from terrorist attacks designed, e.g., to pressure the Israeli government to pull out of Gaza or the West Bank?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
How do you define civilian airport? What percentage supplying terrorists turns it into a target- because what I'm reading there's a decent percent of that going on there.

Cites, please. Seriously.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by taxwonk
"We're going to bomb your civilian airport because you need to learn to exercise more military power within your borders."

Hey, it might work.

"Hey -- an army that is within your borders and affiliated with your government is bombing our farms and cities and kidnapping our soldiers, so we are going to bomb the airfield that is used to supply them." Makes sense to me.

Mass deportations would not have been tolerated by the world community and would have increased hostilities.

And taking a different route decreased hostilities... except for the persistent rocket fire and kidnappings, of course.

And Israel did not withdraw from Gaza because they wanted to keep a Jewish majority inb Israel. The withdrawal was the only possible move because the Palestinians will not accept anything less than their own independent state, just as Israel insists on its own independent state.

Yep. And Israel has repeatedly demonstrated its willingness to have two states -- provided that neither one is dropping bombs on the other. It is Palestinian factions, and supporting Arab states and Iran, that insist that Israel be driven off the map. As they have done for at least 40 years now.

What makes the problem so intractable is that both sides want the same territory for their independent state and both sides have a colorable claim to the land.

This is wrong. Again, Israel has repeatedly demonstrated, over the decades, a willingness to allow a Palestinian state. But far too many Palestinian, Arab, and Irani leaders insist that Israel cease to exist.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Cites, please. Seriously.

way down in this article is a claim http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...275366,00.html I've seen more support elsewhere but don't have time right now-

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
"Hey -- an army that is within your borders and affiliated with your government is bombing our farms and cities and kidnapping our soldiers, so we are going to bomb the airfield that is used to supply them." Makes sense to me.






And taking a different route decreased hostilities... except for the persistent rocket fire and kidnappings, of course.






Yep. And Israel has repeatedly demonstrated its willingness to have two states -- provided that neither one is dropping bombs on the other. It is Palestinian factions, and supporting Arab states and Iran, that insist that Israel be driven off the map. As they have done for at least 40 years now.






This is wrong. Again, Israel has repeatedly demonstrated, over the decades, a willingness to allow a Palestinian state. But far too many Palestinian, Arab, and Irani leaders insist that Israel cease to exist.

Never thought I'd say this, but sidd has my proxy.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Never thought I'd say this, but sidd has my proxy.

Cool. In this, as in most things, I ask myself: "What would Lenin do?"

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
way down in this article is a claim http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...275366,00.html I've seen more support elsewhere but don't have time right now-

I think you're referring to this:

• The IDF said that the Beirut airport constitutes a transportation and shipping station of arms for Hizbullah.

You could make the same claim about most roads and bridges in Lebanon, or about the power and water and sewage utilities. And yet, bombing any of those to deny their use to Hezbollah seems much more likely to kill and affect civilians. The IDF does not claim that it was interdicting arms supplies, which it could do by blockading the airport instead of bombing it.

eta: There's a difference to me between the bombing of the airport and the bombing of the bridges in the south that lead from the area where the two soldiers were captured. The latter seems clearly designed to try to keep the captured soldiers from being moved too far.