Making Baby Jesus Cry

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Spanky
New Topic:

I don't see why people think the future of Iraq is so bleak. From what I have read the insurgents are now overwhelmingly Sunni. The Kurds never took part, and the Shiites, after the election saw they will be in control, so they stopped. So only the Sunnis are left being backed up by the Islamic brotherhood, Al Queda and all the other wacko Sunni organizations.

So once we leave either the Sunnis will eventually be defeated or
The country will split into three states. The Kurds up north, which will probably be Democratic, the Shiite South, which will be some sort of Islamic Republic (Sistani - the most influential leader of the Shiites has already sayd the mullahs should not run the country like they do in Iran) and a little Sunni state in the Middle. The Sunni state will have absolutely no oil, so it will just become an irrelvant state surrounding by democracies.

Where am I wrong?

Spot on.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by nononono
Well, I grew up in the Protestantest churches of the Prots, and I'm just sure I saw Jesus on the cross. Maybe I've conflated this with the Catholic school years experience. But I am certain I never heard anyone instruct me that it was a bad thing. I do recall that cross jewelry was always just a cross, so perhaps this is correct and I never realized.

The biggest difference I noticed was Mary *everywhere*.

It always suprises me that Mary isn't as universally worshiped as she is in the Catholic Church. I'm pretty sure that I memorized the Hail Mary the same time I learned the Our Father (without that end part that always freaks me out about the kingdom of heaven forever and ever). And thanks to countless rosaries, I've probably said more formal prayers to Mary than anyone else. How do ya'll do that monotheism thing?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by nononono
Christmas has become simultaneously more and less religious. Less due to materialism, secularization of it, and more because it is or can be a touchy thing to discuss or mention. Actually, I am still surprised where I live now because it is a largely homogenous population and people actually say Merry Christmas; I hadn't heard that in the general public in years before this.

Maybe its because I am not religious, other than my worship of the babyjesus, but I see it as having been fully secularized. Lazy unproductive people (i.e. liberal free riders) use it as an excuse to slack off and not produce anything from Thanksgiving through New years.

A tremendous drag on the economy. Anyone who is not in Church on Christmas Day, should not the day off. Or Christmas eve. And screw all this leaving early all over the month for Christmas parties. I am definitely a bah humburger on this. The babyjesus is not happy about what people have done to his birthday.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Gattigap
I think part of it stems from your assumption(s) that the civil war will be neat, clean, end up in three nice pieces, people won't miss or care about the barrels of oil lost per day during the war, and that the neighbors will wait patiently at the border until it's over. For starters.

At the end of Gulf War I both the Kurds and the Shiites rose up in rebellion against Saddam Hussein. They hated his reign so much that they were willing to incur tens of thousands of casualties to get rid of him. So civil war was preferable to them than the status quo. Now the majority of the people in the country have what they want - no Saddam Hussein.

The Civil war may last for a while but in the end the Sunnis will have to lose. They are the minority and they are don't have the oil.

Clearly the majority of the people wanted him gone, and were willing to take massive casualties to do it. We took him out and now they have got what they want.

If the majority of people wanted him out and he is out, and they are not suffering near the number of casualties they suffered under Saddams post rebellion opression how can anyone say the people are worse off or the status quo has not improved?

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
It always suprises me that Mary isn't as universally worshiped as she is in the Catholic Church. I'm pretty sure that I memorized Hail Mary the same time I learned the Our Father (without that end part that always freaks me out about the kingdom of heaven forever and ever). How do ya'll do that monotheism thing?

Just because we did it doesn't mean we liked it. When I was in grade school a catholic girlfriend of mine gave me a crucifix with Jesus on it. My grandmother threw it away saying no grandson of hers was going to wear something so Tacky. I was crushed but at the time I think I only weighed sixty pounts. What are you going to do?

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Spanky
At the end of Gulf War I both the Kurds and the Shiites rose up in rebellion against Saddam Hussein. They hated his reign so much that they were willing to incur tens of thousands of casualties to get rid of him. So civil war was preferable to them than the status quo. Now the majority of the people in the country have what they want - no Saddam Hussein.

The Civil war may last for a while but in the end the Sunnis will have to lose. They are the minority and they are don't have the oil.

Clearly the majority of the people wanted him gone, and were willing to take massive casualties to do it. We took him out and now they have got what they want.

If the majority of people wanted him out and he is out, and they are not suffering near the number of casualties they suffered under Saddams post rebellion opression how can anyone say the people are worse off or the status quo has not improved?

This is fantastic analysis and all, but I still struggle to see WTF it has to do with the argument that a protracted civil war in the middle o' the Middle East simply ain't no biggie.

"We gave you what you want, you're better off now than before" is nice as a means of justifying our taking out Saddam, but it doesn't really address the problem you raised. This doesn't alleviate the desire of the participants to kill each other, nor the other concerns I mentioned earlier.

[nononono]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
It always suprises me that Mary isn't as universally worshiped as she is in the Catholic Church. I'm pretty sure that I memorized the Hail Mary the same time I learned the Our Father (without that end part that always freaks me out about the kingdom of heaven forever and ever). And thanks to countless rosaries, I've probably said more formal prayers to Mary than anyone else. How do ya'll do that monotheism thing?

Worshipped, eek!

Well, it's the Trinity, you know, so it's really tritheism (yes, I know this is blasphemy, I'm just playing). I actually find the different roles of Mary in the Cath. and Prot. churches incredibly interesting. I have a really hard time in churches that have her elevated to the same place as jesu, though. It just feels weird. In a garden next to St. Francis, though, and I'm okay, even though that is very not Prot., too.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Maybe its because I am not religious, other than my worship of the babyjesus, but I see it as having been fully secularized. Lazy unproductive people (i.e. liberal free riders) use it as an excuse to slack off and not produce anything from Thanksgiving through New years.

A tremendous drag on the economy. Anyone who is not in Church on Christmas Day, should not the day off. Or Christmas eve. And screw all this leaving early all over the month for Christmas parties. I am definitely a bah humburger on this. The babyjesus is not happy about what people have done to his birthday.

I think Jesus was born in the Spring. The Romans put Christmas where it is to coincide with the winter solstice - get the Pagans to the party. That is also why the holy day was moved from Saturday to Sunday. On Sundays the pagans took the day off. Only the jews and the Seventh Day Adventists (I think that is what they are called) really worship on the right day.

[nononono]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Maybe its because I am not religious, other than my worship of the babyjesus, but I see it as having been fully secularized. Lazy unproductive people (i.e. liberal free riders) use it as an excuse to slack off and not produce anything from Thanksgiving through New years.

A tremendous drag on the economy. Anyone who is not in Church on Christmas Day, should not the day off. Or Christmas eve. And screw all this leaving early all over the month for Christmas parties. I am definitely a bah humburger on this. The babyjesus is not happy about what people have done to his birthday.

Bah humbugger, indeed. And I have never gone to church on Christmas - it wasn't done. Christmas eve, usually much too late at night.

Drag on the economy. Please. Collective leisuretime is a good thing now and then.

Or, think about it selfishly. If things didn't slow down in December (or go crazy for year-end deals and then slow down in January), you'd be really tired from working so much.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Maybe its because I am not religious, other than my worship of the babyjesus, but I see it as having been fully secularized. Lazy unproductive people (i.e. liberal free riders) use it as an excuse to slack off and not produce anything from Thanksgiving through New years.

A tremendous drag on the economy. Anyone who is not in Church on Christmas Day, should not the day off. Or Christmas eve. And screw all this leaving early all over the month for Christmas parties. I am definitely a bah humburger on this. The babyjesus is not happy about what people have done to his birthday.

The babyjesus can kiss my ass.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Spanky
Just because we did it doesn't mean we liked it. When I was in grade school a catholic girlfriend of mine gave me a crucifix with Jesus on it. My grandmother threw it away saying no grandson of hers was going to wear something so Tacky. I was crushed but at the time I think I only weighed sixty pounts. What are you going to do?

Ironically, coincidentally, the tie-clip I am using today is a crucifix.

[baltassoc]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
It always suprises me that Mary isn't as universally worshiped as she is in the Catholic Church. I'm pretty sure that I memorized the Hail Mary the same time I learned the Our Father (without that end part that always freaks me out about the kingdom of heaven forever and ever). And thanks to countless rosaries, I've probably said more formal prayers to Mary than anyone else. How do ya'll do that monotheism thing?

Well, first you've got that trinity thing, so monothesism is relative.

I've always found the Mary thing interesting. There's not a lot of direct biblical support for the idea that she would make a good divine intervenor. She's the earthly mother of one of the three manifestations of God. Presumably Jesus has got a special place in heart for his Mom and all, but you'd think the endless line of requests for divine intervention coming from her camp would get a little old.

Why not just go directly to the top?

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Ironically, coincidentally, the tie-clip I am using today is a crucifix.

Uh, where?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Spanky
I think Jesus was born in the Spring. The Romans put Christmas where it is to coincide with the winter solstice - get the Pagans to the party. That is also why the holy day was moved from Saturday to Sunday. On Sundays the pagans took the day off. Only the jews and the Seventh Day Adventists (I think that is what they are called) really worship on the right day.

This is tangential to my point, but I appreciate the effourt.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Gattigap
This is fantastic analysis and all, but I still struggle to see WTF it has to do with the argument that a protracted civil war in the middle o' the Middle East simply ain't no biggie.

"We gave you what you want, you're better off now than before" is nice as a means of justifying our taking out Saddam, but it doesn't really address the problem you raised. This doesn't alleviate the desire of the participants to kill each other, nor the other concerns I mentioned earlier.

When I look at a policy decision the way I judge it is are we better off than we were before. In this case I would say yes.

1) The Iraqis are definitely better off than they were before. As explained above

2) With minmum casualties (for the families involved in the deaths are tragic but 2,000 dead is almost nothing. We lost 2,000 men in the first ten seconds of Iwo Jima or D-Day. In Korea we would lose 2,000 men just to take a hill) we got rid of a major enemy of the United States.

3) Our prestige increased significantly. As a wise man said - it is better to feared than loved. Whether someone loves you is beyond your control but whether or not they fear you is within your control. Love is a fickle emotion that is unstable fear sticks like glue. Taking out Iraq in three weeks with so little casualites made the whole world realize they really don't want to get into an armed conflict with us. We had lost a lot of crediblity when we didn't enforce the Gulf War peace treaty. Now all the credibility is back.