Making Baby Jesus Cry

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Spanky
Assumimg that the Civil War is a total disaster. Wouldn't that still be better than leaving Saddam in Power. In 91, before Saddam really got down to slaughtering him, they definitely thought a lot of violence was worth getting rid of him. I find it hard to believe that they have changed their minds.

Anything is prefereable to Saddam. See Clinton's speech from December 1998 that I posted over the weekend. He was and remained a threat and either had or was going to acquire WMDs and use them on America. Clinton said it. The MSM reported it and supported him. It must be true.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Spanky
When I look at a policy decision the way I judge it is are we better off than we were before. In this case I would say yes.

Spanky, I love ya like the only furball CA Republican I've known, but you've gotta be kidding me. It doesn't strike you as the least bit disingenous to ignore what happens when we leave?

1) The Iraqis are definitely better off than they were before. As explained above

Let's set aside the arguments that others have had on this topic. Assume this is so -- it would be so because we are there. We leave, it creates a big freakin' vacuum, and the various factions break out the big knives, each supported by their own wacko sponsor neighbor country. No so sure the Iraqis would consider, or care, about this "better off" analysis, because their lives will turn to shit.

2) With minmum casualties (for the families involved in the deaths are tragic but 2,000 dead is almost nothing. We lost 2,000 men in the first ten seconds of Iwo Jima or D-Day. In Korea we would lose 2,000 men just to take a hill) we got rid of a major enemy of the United States.

I presume you're alluding to US lives lost to date. I'm not focusing on that -- I'm talking about what will happen when we leave. I think we're talking past each other here.

3) Our prestige increased significantly. As a wise man said - it is better to feared than loved. Whether someone loves you is beyond your control but whether or not they fear you is within your control. Love is a fickle emotion that is unstable fear sticks like glue. Taking out Iraq in three weeks with so little casualites made the whole world realize they really don't want to get into an armed conflict with us. We had lost a lot of crediblity when we didn't enforce the Gulf War peace treaty. Now all the credibility is back.

Dissent. We've demonstrated not only that we can not only knock over a popsicle stand, but smash it to bits. A good skill to have, certainly, and it would instill fear.

Our inability to rebuild said popsicle stand, however, does not = "prestige."

Also, watching us get completely ensnared in trying to govern, then get the fuck out, of Iraq has emboldened Iran and NK to tell us to go screw ourselves, as they know quite well that we don't have a brigade to spare. This is credibility?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Much of the commerce of Christmas is contrived for the holidays. Many gifts, particularly in the corporate sector, would never get bought but for the holiday. Useless shit like paperweights and tote bags, and stuff like gift baskets. Christmas cards, which everyone has to send to everyone else. The huge amounts of money spent on holiday parties, which probably would not otherwise get spent.

A lot of unwanted, unneeded gifts just get tossed every year. Not everyone just buys the wife some household appliances and the kids regular school clothes at Xmas.

I think I disagree with much but I am not sure. I am not a big gift giver outside of my house. Most of that stuff would get bought anyway. Christmas specific makes up maybe 20%, plus we go on a Christmas related holiday, which might otherwise not do, that's probably 4-6 times the rest of the holiday budget.........maybe you are right.

Does the commerce outweight the cost of the productivity slowdowns?

[baltassoc]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Yes, but how much of that commerce wouldn't occur in another setting over the rest of the year? Is all of the commerce at Christmas contrived for the holiday or would people buy gifts or acquire the possessions in other settings? Or some proportion of them?

No doubt some of the things would still get purchased, but there is an inefficiency introduced through a gift-giving process. Items get purchased that the recipient doesn't realy need. Maybe they take them back, maybe they don't. Meanwhile, the things that are actually needed are actually purchased.

Even at a 10 - 20 percent boost, it's enough to mean the difference between growth and stagnation.

[Fuck. I can't believe I'm arguing with you over this. You are such a fucking troll.]

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Spanky
Is that a clinical term?

A term of endeament around here.

At worst a Kurdish Alley in the North, a nominal alley in the south and a weak center that does not like us. Much better than before were we had teh full resources of Iraq being used to subvert our interests.

Turkey has made its feelings known about an independent Kurdistan. The weak center cannot survive without allies, which it will get from one its neighbors. Iran may well choose to coopt the south.

That won't change the fear. If they sink into a civil war, people will still not want the US to invade them. Syria, Iran, Libya and North Korea all seriously fear a US invasion. I can't imagine any other feeling I would rather have these countrys feel for us than absolute terror.

We provided the conditions precedent for the civil war. Why would they fear us? So we could take it over again, leave, and let it slip into civil war again?

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
I'm just dumbstruck that you're downplaying the effects of a civil war. I hate to resort to namecalling, but you are either a fool or hopelessly naive. If stability in the ME is so unimportant, then what the fuck are we doing there in the first place?

I am not downplaying the effects of a civil war. You are just ignoring the horror of Saddam Husseins regime. Why do liberals always think peace is such a good thing? I think the Jews in Germany would have preferred a German civil war. I am sure the civil war in the Soviet Union was much better than what was to follow. The Chinese civil war was preferable than the peace that followed. In Cambodia, the war and the US bombing, were infinitely better than the "peace" that followed. As I stated the Kurds and the Shiites chose civil war over peace under Hussein. And that is before he drained the wetlands killing and displacing millions of people. You just don't appreciate how bad things were during his regime.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by baltassoc
Well, first you've got that trinity thing, so monothesism is relative.

I've always found the Mary thing interesting. There's not a lot of direct biblical support for the idea that she would make a good divine intervenor. She's the earthly mother of one of the three manifestations of God. Presumably Jesus has got a special place in heart for his Mom and all, but you'd think the endless line of requests for divine intervention coming from her camp would get a little old.

Why not just go directly to the top?

Maybe it's sort of like asking the more benevolent parent if you can go to Astroworld instead of the one that you just KNOW will say no.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Spanky
I am not downplaying the effects of a civil war. You are just ignoring the horror of Saddam Husseins regime. Why do liberals always think peace is such a good thing? I think the Jews in Germany would have preferred a German civil war. I am sure the civil war in the Soviet Union was much better than what was to follow. The Chinese civil war was preferable than the peace that followed. In Cambodia, the war and the US bombing, were infinitely better than the "peace" that followed. As I stated the Kurds and the Shiites chose civil war over peace under Hussein. And that is before he drained the wetlands killing and displacing millions of people. You just don't appreciate how bad things were during his regime.

Thank you for presuming what I know or don't know about SH. I'd love to sit around and debate you about this, but it's past my quittin' time, so I'll hand the reins over. Gatti, you up for this?

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Ironically, coincidentally, the tie-clip I am using today is a crucifix.

That's not a crucifix.

[nononono]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Sorry, spelling hasn't ever been my strong suit.

We've got the one God, three persons thing, too. And it probably doesn't help matters that the Virgin of Guadalupe is sorta kinda important to My People.

I sort of like to pick and choose though. My favorite quasi-religious ceremony ever is New Years Eve in the Taos pueblo, which picks and chooses from Judeism, Catholicism, Pueblo rituals and touchy feely spiritual stuff that isn't really defined.

ETadd link.

No, the eek wasn't for spelling - it was for worshipping Mary. Just a little mock-horror. :-)

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Spanky
I am not downplaying the effects of a civil war. You are just ignoring the horror of Saddam Husseins regime. Why do liberals always think peace is such a good thing? I think the Jews in Germany would have preferred a German civil war. I am sure the civil war in the Soviet Union was much better than what was to follow. The Chinese civil war was preferable than the peace that followed. In Cambodia, the war and the US bombing, were infinitely better than the "peace" that followed. As I stated the Kurds and the Shiites chose civil war over peace under Hussein. And that is before he drained the wetlands killing and displacing millions of people. You just don't appreciate how bad things were during his regime.

Holy shit. After rhapsodizing about Freedom, Democracy, Human Rights and Capitalism for over 2 years, the rhetorical leap required for Bush to move to a policy of "fuck it, let God sort 'em out" will be impressive indeed.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by baltassoc
No doubt some of the things would still get purchased, but there is an inefficiency introduced through a gift-giving process. Items get purchased that the recipient doesn't realy need. Maybe they take them back, maybe they don't. Meanwhile, the things that are actually needed are actually purchased.

Even at a 10 - 20 percent boost, it's enough to mean the difference between growth and stagnation.

[Fuck. I can't believe I'm arguing with you over this. You are such a fucking troll.]

Plus, damnit, I like the gift giving and the parties and the days off and the solstice and the pretty lights and the decorations and the egg nog and the pretending to be nice to one another and the football and the Grinch on TV (Karloff, not Carrey) and the trees and the mistletoe and the ball dropping and all that crap. And it's all about me. Or it should be.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Plus, damnit, I like the gift giving and the parties and the days off and the solstice and the pretty lights and the decorations and the egg nog and the pretending to be nice to one another and the football and the Grinch on TV (Karloff, not Carrey) and the trees and the mistletoe and the ball dropping and all that crap. And it's all about me. Or it should be.

Hear that, balt? Plat-I-Num.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Thank you for presuming what I know or don't know about SH. I'd love to sit around and debate you about this, but it's past my quittin' time, so I'll hand the reins over. Gatti, you up for this?

That is a ridiculous comment. You were saying I was downplaying the civil war, and I said you were downplaying Saddam Husseins regime. I could have said "thank you for presuming what I know or don't know about the civil war in Iraq". But instead of trying to deflect away from the subject I answered your questions directly: I just explained why I thought SH's regime was much worse (and that the fact that the Kurds and Shiites agree with me). Why do you think even a really bad civil war would be better than Sh's regime?

[baltassoc]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Maybe it's sort of like asking the more benevolent parent if you can go to Astroworld instead of the one that you just KNOW will say no.

Yes, well, parents tend to talk to each other.

Of course, I also think praying for divine intervention is kind of pointless, but then I'm a bit a Calvinist.