All Hank, all the time.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
So Israel should be pushed into the sea?

And before you say "two-state solution," remember that a number of Israelis have called for that, and Israel has tried it before. But the players on the other side -- currently Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the like, but last time Nasser and his compatriots -- weren't so interested in that. When there was an evolution of views by one actor -- Egypt -- Israel gave up land for peace.

Some Israelis may really want eternal occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, but most serious ones do not. As you have pointed out, this may be simple realism, rather than any goodness of the Israeli heart, at work -- but so what? Any realistic Palestinian would reject the notion of devoting your life to driving Israel into the sea. The forced evacuations of Gaza demonstrated that it is serious, realistic people, and not extremists relying on their view of Biblical dogma, who generally run the show in Israel. Neither Palestine nor Lebanon (nor Syria, nor Iran, nor most of the Arab world) has shown any analogous situation.

As long as governments in the Mideast are run by, or cater to, parties that refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist, there will never be peace in the mideast.

Damn, Sidd has my proxy for another day.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Sidd
As long as governments in the Mideast are run by, or cater to, parties that refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist, there will never be peace in the mideast.

This is certainly true. And yet some of Israel's actions seem calculated to undermine more moderate neighboring governments, and serve to strengthen less moderate elements. For example, Israel did huge damage to the Palestinian Authority in the last several years. Is Israel better off with Hamas in charge? And in Lebanon, it seems like Israel is not well served by a policy of massive reprisal that undermines the central government.

Which is not say that Israel doesn't have the right to defend itself against rocket attacks. I'm questioning tactics, not strategy.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
This is certainly true. And yet some of Israel's actions seem calculated to undermine more moderate neighboring governments, and serve to strengthen less moderate elements. For example, Israel did huge damage to the Palestinian Authority in the last several years. Is Israel better off with Hamas in charge?

I saw interviews with Israeli citizens where they say they are. First it makes Hamas' actions state actions and second it shows any reasonable people in other governements that the Palis real goal is the destruction of Israel- not peace.

And in Lebanon, it seems like Israel is not well served by a policy of massive reprisal that undermines the central government.

what if the central government lets Hezbollah do whatever it wants- would that change your answer?

[Adder]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Did you see Munich? Israel knows how to take out targets quietly. They've just decided that "an eye for an eye" is a valid military strategy.

Don't you mean two arms and a leg for an eye?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I saw interviews with Israeli citizens where they say they are. First it makes Hamas' actions state actions and second it shows any reasonable people in other governements that the Palis real goal is the destruction of Israel- not peace.

Where does that get them?

what if the central government lets Hezbollah do whatever it wants- would that change your answer?

As I said before, I don't think the central government in Lebanon is strong enough to tell Hezbollah to do much.

It's not an easy situation, obviously. It's not like Israel's neighbors are full of moderates.

[Adder]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch

My position? I believe in a policy of fierce retaliation against terrorists, including countries and populations that willingly harbor and support them.

Because it has worked when in history (absent the will to actually, you know, exterminate the opposition)?

Lebanon has been directed by the UN to disarm Hezbollah.

Which lebanon is supposed to do this? the unstable nascient democratic one? or the syrian backed one? And whose army are they supposed to be using?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Where does that get them?

state actions let them attack w/o hearing how unfair it is to the legit Pali government- and once Hamas won, several countries began limiting $$$ to the government- w/o Hamas in charge you might see more pressure from the US to stop, as an example.

[Adder]

Originally posted by taxwonk

The sacking of villages by Vikings was not quite on a par with the political strategy of engaging in violence with the aim of forcing the existing leadership to take such extreme measures to control violence that it alienates its populace. That is what was done in Israel in the 40s and in Algeria in the 50s and 60s. The political element was a new twist, and one that has been escalating ever since.

And the Irish in 1920-1921. While I am no historian, I am not aware of these tactics being used before Michael Collins.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
state actions let them attack w/o hearing how unfair it is to the legit Pali government- and once Hamas won, several countries began limiting $$$ to the government- w/o Hamas in charge you might see more pressure from the US to stop, as an example.

I don't disagree, but my point is that in the long run, Israel needs reasonable governments running its neighbors, not discredited radicals. It's not like they can move to a better neighborhood.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I don't disagree, but my point is that in the long run, Israel needs reasonable governments running its neighbors, not discredited radicals. It's not like they can move to a better neighborhood.

right- BUT- before they had a government they knew wasn't really reasonable, and they had countries telling them it was.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
right- BUT- before they had a government they knew wasn't really reasonable, and they had countries telling them it was.

I don't know why you conservatives get so hung up on what the Albanias and the Zambias of the world think. You can't run your foreign policy to make foreigners happy -- that's all I'm saying.

[Diane_Keaton]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
While I don't necessarily have much esteem for DK, I do share some of her feeling about people who repeatedly point out that Arab terrorists "learned their tactics" from Sharon, Moshe Dayan, etc.

Arab terrorists learning tactics from Jews. Heh. Like any self-respecting Jew would strap on a bomb and implode himself based on the promise of virgins in the afterlife. The whole "Jews taught them how to kill Jews" is really really desparate. And by the way, Taxwonk, I call bullshit on your whole Jewishness claim. But if it is true, then you are a bad fucking Jew and deserve to be spanked after being force-fed Kasha and meatballs. You old, whiny, liberal, self-hating windbag. Hopefully, I've covered everything here. Okay, then, move along.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
So you think Israel could have quietly taken out the military leaders of Hamas over the past few years, but chose not to?

I know they could have dome it more quietly than they did with a rocket attack that took out an entire residential block.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
So Israel should be pushed into the sea?

And before you say "two-state solution," remember that a number of Israelis have called for that, and Israel has tried it before. But the players on the other side -- currently Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the like, but last time Nasser and his compatriots -- weren't so interested in that. When there was an evolution of views by one actor -- Egypt -- Israel gave up land for peace.

Some Israelis may really want eternal occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, but most serious ones do not. As you have pointed out, this may be simple realism, rather than any goodness of the Israeli heart, at work -- but so what? Any realistic Palestinian would reject the notion of devoting your life to driving Israel into the sea. The forced evacuations of Gaza demonstrated that it is serious, realistic people, and not extremists relying on their view of Biblical dogma, who generally run the show in Israel. Neither Palestine nor Lebanon (nor Syria, nor Iran, nor most of the Arab world) has shown any analogous situation.

As long as governments in the Mideast are run by, or cater to, parties that refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist, there will never be peace in the mideast.

I agree with this. I just don't think that Israel is likely to be able to correct the situation by either killing off all the Palestinians or by pursuing a scorched earth policy. I am also pretty confident that the way to bring about peace is not through attacking and weakening the one government in the region likeliest to ultimately serve as a mediating force in the Arab world.

To put it in your terms, I don't think the way to peace is to push all the Palestinains into the sea either, and unless they're pushed into the sea or given a peice of their historic homeland, they will never stop fighting.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
Arab terrorists learning tactics from Jews. Heh. Like any self-respecting Jew would strap on a bomb and implode himself based on the promise of virgins in the afterlife. The whole "Jews taught them how to kill Jews" is really really desparate. And by the way, Taxwonk, I call bullshit on your whole Jewishness claim. But if it is true, then you are a bad fucking Jew and deserve to be spanked after being force-fed Kasha and meatballs. You old, whiny, liberal, self-hating windbag. Hopefully, I've covered everything here. Okay, then, move along.

You don't know me, bitch. Go play with your guns and diddle yourself to sleep with your macho fantasiess of blowing the fucking infidels away. Maybe if you hate me long enough and hard enough, your prayers for your clit to grow into a penis will be answered. Then you can come kick my feeble old ass.