A Forum for Grinches and Ho-Ho-Hoes - Page 130

Replaced_Texan · 01-25-2005, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
And I'm curious why club is not giving any response about how those kinds of consent are different from consenting to abortion.

Well, the policy reasons for these sorts of treatment are similar to what we're arguing about abortion. If the kid can't consent for him or herself and has to have a parent involved, he or she may not seek treatment that the state thinks is more important to receive than the consent. Drug and alcohol. Pregnancy. Communicable diseases the kid may have obtained having sex. Suicide counseling. Kids can hide all of these things (including pregnancy in some cases, definitely when pre-natal care is a good idea) from their parents, and the state thinks it's better for them to go ahead and go to the doctor without their parents' involement than not at all.

On a side note, it's frustrating as hell when a pregnant kid wants to skip school. She schedules a physician's appointment, gets the confirmation note and hands it to the school for a legitimate excuse, and she never shows up for the appointment. Her mother calls because kid is having truancy issues, and the clinic has to figure out how much they can tell mom (everything) and whether or not mom can make appointments for pregnant kids that kid has to keep (grey area).

sgtclub · 01-25-2005, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
So you'll go to the gyno with her to get the pill? And weigh the pros and cons of Rickey over Johnny? How sweet.
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And if she doesn't want to talk to you about those decisions, you want the gov't to require her to?

I want to be notified. I can't force her to talk to me.

Frankly, I can't believe that my position is more "parental" than yours, given that I have no kids. My guess is that you are exploring something here.

ltl/fb · 01-25-2005, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
I want to be notified. I can't force her to talk to me.

Frankly, I can't believe that my position is more "parental" than yours, given that I have no kids. My guess is that you are exploring something here.

After all this fabulous parenting, you don't trust her? I think Sidd figures that if after all his parenting, she is STILL afraid to tell him or her mom that she is pregnant, he'd rather have her get the abortion if she doesn't want to be pregnant than to end up with an unwanted child just because she wasn't able to talk to him/her mom about it.

ltl/fb · 01-25-2005, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
I want to be notified. I can't force her to talk to me.

Frankly, I can't believe that my position is more "parental" than yours, given that I have no kids. My guess is that you are exploring something here.

Plus the whole life-endangering aspect of an immature body carrying a baby to term. Hard to get a baby out through small, underdeveloped hips. Hard to have a healthy baby when you are trying to stay skinny so that no one will guess you are pregnant (though, the undernourished kid is easy to slide out through the teensy hips).

sgtclub · 01-25-2005, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
If I can have sex without parental notification* (and, if I'm over about 14 or so, and the guy isn't too much older than I am, without there being any crime involved), and I can get medical care for my pregnancy without parental consent or notification, and I can get treated for drug and/or alcohol dependency without parental notification, why can't I get an abortion from without parental notification?

*for "notification" read "notification or consent"

Do you really not see the difference between medical attention, drug treatment, and abortion?

Can't speak to the sex part; I thought it was illegal in most states.

sgtclub · 01-25-2005, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
After all this fabulous parenting, you don't trust her? I think Sidd figures that if after all his parenting, she is STILL afraid to tell him or her mom that she is pregnant, he'd rather have her get the abortion if she doesn't want to be pregnant than to end up with an unwanted child just because she wasn't able to talk to him/her mom about it.

It's not about trust, it's about capacity. It's also about letting her hear that the planned parenthood counselor's view is not the only view out there.

Sidd is placing a lot of responsbility and stress on a person that likely is not suited to handle it. I don't believe that he would really handle it that way, though it makes a good argument for him.

sgtclub · 01-25-2005, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Plus the whole life-endangering aspect of an immature body carrying a baby to term. Hard to get a baby out through small, underdeveloped hips. Hard to have a healthy baby when you are trying to stay skinny so that no one will guess you are pregnant (though, the undernourished kid is easy to slide out through the teensy hips).

You are conflacting issues here. This is not an abortion debate per se.

ltl/fb · 01-25-2005, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Do you really not see the difference between medical attention, drug treatment, and abortion?

Can't speak to the sex part; I thought it was illegal in most states.

A 14-y-o can generally have sex with another 14-y-o. By the time you hit 16, definitely in pretty much every state. 16 or 17 is even the age of consent in most places. And, in any event, it's just ILLEGAL whether or not there is parental notification or consent.

Can you really not understand that most parents are not the perfect parents you theoretically will be?

Replaced_Texan · 01-25-2005, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
A 14-y-o can generally have sex with another 14-y-o. By the time you hit 16, definitely in pretty much every state. 16 or 17 is even the age of consent in most places. And, in any event, it's just ILLEGAL whether or not there is parental notification or consent.

Can you really not understand that most parents are not the perfect parents you theoretically will be?

It's also possible that one of the parents (or another family member) is the father of the fetus.

BTW, when I was in high school, most of the girls had donated to a fund (I think it cost $272 to have an abortion back then) and we'd worked out a list of fake names and addresses to give to the clinic to send notifications. I don't know how many girls ended up using the fund. I can't imagine that kids nowadays aren't doing the same thing.

ltl/fb · 01-25-2005, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
You are conflacting issues here. This is not an abortion debate per se.

I was making the point that Sidd may be more trusting of the way that he brings up his daughter, and more concerned about her health and the health of any grandchild that might be born, than he is about being notified of her desire to get an abortion if she finds herself pregnant at an early age.

By saying this, I am indeed implying that you are more concerned about being notified than you are about the health of your daughter or the health of the unwanted-by-its-mother grandchild that would result if your daughter wanted an abortion, was for whatever irrational teenaged reason unwilling to tell you about it, and was therefore unable to get the abortion.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) · 01-25-2005, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb

Can you really not understand that most parents are not the perfect parents you theoretically will be?

Sure, but until you start licensing parents, one ought to presume they're better than nothing. If one can show the presumption doesn't apply, then you've got a judge or a family member in many states.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) · 01-25-2005, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
You are conflacting issues here. This is not an abortion debate per se.

Well, fringy seems to be advocating abortions for all minors without broad hips.

I'm sure, of course, that a 17 y.o. will be thinking first and foremost when considering an abortion about the width of her hips.

ltl/fb · 01-25-2005, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Sure, but until you start licensing parents, one ought to presume they're better than nothing. If one can show the presumption doesn't apply, then you've got a judge or a family member in many states.

See above re: access to a court for people in sparsely populated areas.

ltl/fb · 01-25-2005, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Well, fringy seems to be advocating abortions for all minors without broad hips.

I'm sure, of course, that a 17 y.o. will be thinking first and foremost when considering an abortion about the width of her hips.

Fuck you. I am saying that Sidd is more worried about the health of his kid than knowing everything about her life because he doesn't truly trust that he brought her up right.

OF COURSE in an ideal world all children would trust their parents and all parents would be worthy of that trust. But what the fuck kind of fucked up kids do you think you end up with when some kid is forced to have a baby?

OK, I officially give up.

Replaced_Texan · 01-25-2005, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
It's not about trust, it's about capacity. It's also about letting her hear that the planned parenthood counselor's view is not the only view out there.

Didn't she hear your point of view over and over again when you gave her all the sex talks back in kindergarden? Obviously, if she's going to the abortion clinic behind your back, communication has broken down. Why would she be more receptive to your view only when she's caught trying to avoid it? And what are you going to do when she says "thanks dad, but I've given it a lot of thought, and I'm going to have the abortion"? Lock her in her room until the second trimester? Yell at her until she changes her mind?