A Forum for Grinches and Ho-Ho-Hoes

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
See above re: access to a court for people in sparsely populated areas.

I did. what about the people in the city. yours is an "as applied" objection, not facial.

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
It's also possible that one of the parents (or another family member) is the father of the fetus.

BTW, when I was in high school, most of the girls had donated to a fund (I think it cost $272 to have an abortion back then) and we'd worked out a list of fake names and addresses to give to the clinic to send notifications. I don't know how many girls ended up using the fund. I can't imagine that kids nowadays aren't doing the same thing.

We had that too. Abortion was illegal at the time, so we called it the "Buffalo Fund".

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Fuck you. I am saying that Sidd is more worried about the health of his kid than knowing everything about her life because he doesn't truly trust that he brought her up right.

OF COURSE in an ideal world all children would trust their parents and all parents would be worthy of that trust. But what the fuck kind of fucked up kids do you think you end up with when some kid is forced to have a baby?

OK, I officially give up.

I thought all females are just fetus farms.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
I did. what about the people in the city. yours is an "as applied" objection, not facial.

OK, conlaw guy. So let's have that notification rule apply only to underaged females living in urban areas. Will that pass constitutional muster?

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by ltl/fb


OF COURSE in an ideal world all children would trust their parents and all parents would be worthy of that trust. But what the fuck kind of fucked up kids do you think you end up with when some kid is forced to have a baby?

I don't think parental notification laws (or their lack) can be blamed for more than a few % of the fucked up people in the U.S.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
I don't think parental notification laws (or their lack) can be blamed for more than a few % of the fucked up people in the U.S.

Well that's good to know. I don't think any single reason can be blamed for more than a few % of the fucked up people in the U.S. So let's not do anything about anything.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
OK, conlaw guy. So let's have that notification rule apply only to underaged females living in urban areas. Will that pass constitutional muster?

since broader ones do, of course. But you're missing the point (or ignoring it). Your objection doesn't resolve the larger percentage of instances when getting a judge doesn't present teh same problem. You're nibbling at the fringes of the issue. At least RT is going to the core of the question, which is whether notification/consent adds sufficient value to offset its costs.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Well that's good to know. I don't think any single reason can be blamed for more than a few % of the fucked up people in the U.S. So let's not do anything about anything.

i blame general idiocy for a lot.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
since broader ones do, of course. But you're missing the point (or ignoring it). Your objection doesn't resolve the larger percentage of instances when getting a judge doesn't present teh same problem. You're nibbling at the fringes of the issue. At least RT is going to the core of the question, which is whether notification/consent adds sufficient value to offset its costs.

It appears I need to specifically say that I agree with everything RT has said, and I am presenting additonal reasons, not saying my reasons are better than hers. They aren't.

WHY are we having this discussion the day after I had fabulous sex? It has totally ruined the glow.

And, yes, we were very safe. But if by some miracle I am now pregnant, I will not be telling my parents about my abortion.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
i blame general idiocy for a lot.

To me, this is one of the many specific idiocies that combine to make general idiocy.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
But if by some miracle I am now pregnant, I will not be telling my parents about my abortion.

I don't think miracle is the word you're looking for here.

But congrats on getting laid. Kudos as well for its being fabulous.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
I don't think miracle is the word you're looking for here.

But congrats on getting laid. Kudos as well for its being fabulous.

No, I realize miracle was the wrong word. "Miracle of bad luck," maybe.

I believe a poll may be forthcoming on the FB.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I want to be notified. I can't force her to talk to me.

Frankly, I can't believe that my position is more "parental" than yours, given that I have no kids. My guess is that you are exploring something here.

Nope -- not exploring anything at all. I believe in this very firmly. (eta: SOmetimes, club, when people say they disagree with you, it's not to make conversation, and it's not dishonest, and it's not motivated by some ugly hidden ideology. You consistently seem unable to grasp that.)

If my daughter (hypothetical at the moment, but not for long) wanted an abortion, I hope to hell that she would talk to me about it.

But if I'd been born a girl, and I had to have an abortion, I would not have told my parents. And if I had been required to, I don't know what I would have done -- but the chances are good I would have been thrown out of the house, if they had found out. Or forced to keep the baby I didn't want.

Or, I could have gone to a judge and hoped to prove, somehow, that although I'd never reported any physical abuse by my parents I had in fact suffered such abuse, and that such abuse was particularly drastic when my parents began to think I might be having sex, and if you threw pregnancy and abortion into the mix it would be a particularly explosive situation. And maybe the judge would believe that from a 16 yo pregnant girl about her well respected, professional parents (who just happened to have some dirty laundry that never got washed out in public).

If I'm a shitty enough parent to put my daughter in the position where she doesn't feel she can or should discuss this -- or any other major decision -- with me, then that is my problem, and probably my fault. I don't think the government is capable of fixing that lack of communication, trust, whatever in my family. And I don't want the government to try.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
After all this fabulous parenting, you don't trust her? I think Sidd figures that if after all his parenting, she is STILL afraid to tell him or her mom that she is pregnant, he'd rather have her get the abortion if she doesn't want to be pregnant than to end up with an unwanted child just because she wasn't able to talk to him/her mom about it.

ding ding ding. We have a winner.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Nope -- not exploring anything at all. I believe in this very firmly. (eta: SOmetimes, club, when people say they disagree with you, it's not to make conversation, and it's not dishonest, and it's not motivated by some ugly hidden ideology. You consistently seem unable to grasp that.)

If my daughter (hypothetical at the moment, but not for long) wanted an abortion, I hope to hell that she would talk to me about it.

But if I'd been born a girl, and I had to have an abortion, I would not have told my parents. And if I had been required to, I don't know what I would have done -- but the chances are good I would have been thrown out of the house, if they had found out. Or forced to keep the baby I didn't want.

Or, I could have gone to a judge and hoped to prove, somehow, that although I'd never reported any physical abuse by my parents I had in fact suffered such abuse, and that such abuse was particularly drastic when my parents began to think I might be having sex, and if you threw pregnancy and abortion into the mix it would be a particularly explosive situation. And maybe the judge would believe that from a 16 yo pregnant girl about her well respected, professional parents (who just happened to have some dirty laundry that never got washed out in public).

If I'm a shitty enough parent to put my daughter in the position where she doesn't feel she can or should discuss this -- or any other major decision -- with me, then that is my problem, and probably my fault. I don't think the government is capable of fixing that lack of communication, trust, whatever in my family. And I don't want the government to try.

I guess this all comes down to how mature we each view this hypothetical teen. You, RT, and Fringe all seem to think that her failure to consult with you or your wife is based on faulty parenting. I think there are a whole host of reasons why this could be the case, including, that she is just embarassed about it bringing it up, but would really like to have the support/discussion anyway. I am also concerned that, even if the capacity is there, that a teen may not be getting enough information upon which to make an informed decision. I don't trust planned parenthood or any of the various right to life groups to give her that information on an honest basis.

Again, I am not a parent, but I have been around children, and it is often necessary to prod them to talk about even mundane topics, let alone topics as important as abortion. As a parent, I would like the option to do that prodding.

I also think that there is a tremendous difference between a 17 year old and a 14 year old. I am not as concerned with the former as with the latter, and maybe that is what is driving our respective views.