Politics As Usual

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
For better or for worse, the majority of the population was not "starving" before Mugabe started seizing land in 2000

Ty, that's just not true. Huge portions of the black populace were starving, or were severely malnourished because Zimbabwe's farmland was devoted to tobacco or to corn (and people cannot survive on cornmeal). Why do you think people were demanding land reform if food was plentiful.

The starvation that you see there now is the direct result of Mugabe taking working farms (from white farmers, mostly) and giving them to political hacks who cannot run them. I'm not saying that Zimbabwe was the platonic ideal of racial justice or anything, but Mugabe has caused this crisis as a response to his domestic political troubles.

No dispute there. Nor do I dispute that Mugabe denied food to the Ndebele (I've never heard that claim before, even from Ndebele partisans, but I don't particularly doubt it). Nor do I dispute that this is genocide.

But, again -- what would you do? It seems that your answer is "there wasn't any problem to address," yet I cannot believe that you are so ignorant.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Exactly. And no one should think this seizing of land was peaceful. It was not in the least.

No one has claimed that it was.


Either when the whites did it, or when the blacks did.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
It was great seeing Maggie again.

She looks good compared to what you've been looking at lately?



Note: Someone stole my login and typed that.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by baltassoc
BTW, you still mod of the Southern Board?

He is, but that's just a front. Gatti was born and raised and remains in Saskatchewan, or however you spell that.

[SlaveNoMore]

Sidd Finch
She looks good compared to what you've been looking at lately?

One word. Kevlar.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
He is, but that's just a front. Gatti was born and raised and remains in Saskatchewan, or however you spell that.

I invented claiming a poster was from an obscure Canadian Province.

btw its budhists who are offended by having bare feet pointed at them, I believe I said muslems yesterday.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
One word. Kevlar.

Concur. If Ty doesn't frag him first, after that "I cannot believe that you are so ignorant" line.

Apropos of nothing, I learned in college that with 50 lbs of pressure and a quarter-turn, a man's ear comes right off. Show a man his ear, fight's pretty much over. A word to the wise is sufficient.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
btw its budhists who are offended by having bare feet pointed at them, I believe I said muslems yesterday.

Arabs, Hank. The word you're looking for is Arabs.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Concur. If Ty doesn't frag him first, after that "I cannot believe that you are so ignorant" line.

Apropos of nothing, I learned in college that with 50 lbs of pressure and a quarter-turn, a man's ear comes right off. Show a man his ear, fight's pretty much over. A word to the wise is sufficient.

"AON," my butt.

Do you sell nun-chuks from the trunk of your car, too, just in case someone's got an itch they need to scratch?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Arabs, Hank. The word you're looking for is Arabs.

To quote my lovely daughter, "You don't know the World"

Actually I was aware of Thai buddhists being offended. You can't wear shoes in temples, but you have to wear socks. If its Arabs also, I wasn't aware. that's just an additional reason the avatar is inappropriate.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Ty, that's just not true. Huge portions of the black populace were starving, or were severely malnourished because Zimbabwe's farmland was devoted to tobacco or to corn (and people cannot survive on cornmeal). Why do you think people were demanding land reform if food was plentiful.

Cite, please. Then compare it to, e.g., this article from The Economist in 2002 titled "From breadbasket to basket case" or this report from the State Department titled "Zimbabwe's Manmade Crisis" ("Zimbabwe exported food and imported some of Africa’s brightest young minds. Today, Zimbabwe cannot grow enough food to feed itself and a bankrupt treasury cannot finance critical imports of food and fuel."). Export crops like tobacco bring in money that can be used to pay for food. Many more blacks have lost their jobs than whites have lost their farms in the last few years.

No dispute there. Nor do I dispute that Mugabe denied food to the Ndebele (I've never heard that claim before, even from Ndebele partisans, but I don't particularly doubt it). Nor do I dispute that this is genocide.

But, again -- what would you do? It seems that your answer is "there wasn't any problem to address," yet I cannot believe that you are so ignorant.

I didn't say that there isn't any problem to address. For the first several years he was in power, Mugabe had found a way to accommodate whites and blacks, to a remarkable degree. This changed when his hold on power started to slip. A more gifted leader would have tried to find a more pragmatic way to address the legitimate push for land reform, but we all know this is not what Mugabe was after.

I don't know what we can do. I'm the one who is skeptical, on practical grounds, of U.S. intervention to depose foreign despots. Bilmore, OTOH, presumably thinks we should be invading Zimbabwe to stop Mugabe from killing his own people, and yet he would rather recycle his old talking points about Josh Marshall.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
One word. Kevlar.

Come out to SF. There are some real hotties here, as I'm sure you would agree.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Ron and Mikhail's Excellent Adventure: How Reagan won the Cold War

Something in here for all sides.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I didn't say that there isn't any problem to address. For the first several years he was in power, Mugabe had found a way to accommodate whites and blacks, to a remarkable degree.

Yes and no. The government's inability (by treaty) to do land reform was a huge problem for many in the black population.

As for people starving? Saw them. Met the people who worked with them. Cites from the Economist are not particularly compelling -- I like the magazine but it tends to elevate the ability to produce commodities over the ability tof feed and employ people. Zimbabwe exported corn to Mozambique and Botswana, primarily. That did not enable it to feed its people.

Best and brightest minds coming to Zimbabwe? Yes and no. Many of those minds stayed in Zimbabwe because they were forbidden from going into South Africa (pre-Mandela). Zimbabwe also had the burden of an enormously high level of education and literacy without any jobs or viable industries to put those people to work.

Huge agrarian population with no viable farmland to work? 1% of farmers owning 80% of arable land in a country with virtually no industry (save a few coal mines)? I don't know the solution either. Yes, it's not having a corrupt despot take the land for his cronies. Nor, though, is it the Takings Clause.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Come out to SF. There are some real hotties here, as I'm sure you would agree.

Oh, that is so sweet. Thank you, Ty. And here I thought you were mad at me. Muuuwah!