All Hank, all the time.

[Adder]

Originally posted by Sexual Harassment Panda
Perhaps a silly question, but anyhoo...does the Arab hatred of Israel and Jews predate the establishment of the Israeli state? Is the basis of the fundie Muslim objections that this is holy ground, such that any group who occupied that land would be now hated (e.g., Mennonites, Yankee fans, African-American Muslims)? Or would they still hate Jews (perhaps slightly less) even if the state of Israel did not exist, or existed outside of the old Caliphate?

I'm trying to figure out how much of this conflict is historical (as in pre-1948) and how much of it has to do with (rightly or not) the perceptions of injuries inflicted upon Muslims in the half century since then.

I suspect that without the Israeli state where it is, the Muslim world would hate Jews less than they hate Christians, and less than Christians have historically hated Jews. Which is not to say that there isn't a historical component to it.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Adder
Perhaps by not invading Gaza in the first place?

Israel has been out of Lebanon for years,* but the soldiers were kidnapped by Hezbollah, not Hamas.


* I do not feel like having a conversation about Sheba'a Farms -- hopefully no one else does, either.

[Adder]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Israel has been out of Lebanon for years,* but the soldiers were kidnapped by Hezbollah, not Hamas.

Um... Do you mean to suggest that Hezbollah wasn't reacting to Isreal's actions against Gaza and the PA?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Adder
Um... Do you mean to suggest that Hezbollah wasn't reacting to Isreal's actions against Gaza and the PA?

Not that I really know,* but yes. I don't think they were connected. I don't think that Hezbollah can just kidnap Israeli soldiers whenever they like. I wish I could remember where I read the following, but my understanding is that the Israeli unit on the border had these two humvees out alone, without cover, etc., and the local Hezbollah commander saw them there and went for it. I think Hezbollah would have done the same things on other occasions had the opportunity presented itself, and it was just happenstance that this happened now.

* Spanky Disclosure: Although what follows is unattributed, I do recall that what I read was attributed.

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
Not that I really know,* but yes. I don't think they were connected. I don't think that Hezbollah can just kidnap Israeli soldiers whenever they like. I wish I could remember where I read the following, but my understanding is that the Israeli unit on the border had these two humvees out alone, without cover, etc., and the local Hezbollah commander saw them there and went for it. I think Hezbollah would have done the same things on other occasions had the opportunity presented itself, and it was just happenstance that this happened now.

* Spanky Disclosure: Although what follows is unattributed, I do recall that what I read was attributed.

Iranian-directed assault to get Israeli into a 2 front conflict and distract attention from the G-8.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Iranian-directed assault to get Israeli into a 2 front conflict and distract attention from the G-8.

It's an Iranian plot to keep people from hearing about Bush's groping of Merkel? Pretty shrewd!

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Sexual Harassment Panda
Perhaps a silly question, but anyhoo...does the Arab hatred of Israel and Jews predate the establishment of the Israeli state? Is the basis of the fundie Muslim objections that this is holy ground, such that any group who occupied that land would be now hated (e.g., Mennonites, Yankee fans, African-American Muslims)? Or would they still hate Jews (perhaps slightly less) even if the state of Israel did not exist, or existed outside of the old Caliphate?

I'm trying to figure out how much of this conflict is historical (as in pre-1948) and how much of it has to do with (rightly or not) the perceptions of injuries inflicted upon Muslims in the half century since then.

It actually goes back to the Babylonian Captivity, in 597 B.C.E. when the First Temple was destroyed and the remaining Tribes of Israel were expelled from Israel and Judeah. During the Captivity, the Assyrians moved in large numbers into the former kingsoms of Israel and Judeah.

Many of them intermarried with the Jews who were not expelled and adopted their own form of Judaism. These people were known as Samaritans. When Cyrus of Persia overthrew Nebuchadnezzar in 537 B.C.E., the Jews were allowed to return to Israel and found the country to be populated by Samaritans, Phoenicians (who some believe were the ancestors of today's Palestinians), Chaldeans, and Egyptians.

The introduction of Islam in the 7th Century C.E. orignally saw a fairly large degree of intercooperation among the Muslims and the Jews, particularly in the areas of philosophy and medicine.

The hostility between Arabs and Jews did not really come into being until the Late Ottoman Empire, in the 18th-20th Centuries. The conflict over the land known originally as Canaan, then Israel, and then Palestine, didn't really come into bloom until the end of WWII, when the Brits, French, and Dutch began to try to deal with the simultaneous problems of resettling all the people displaced by the Nazis, the anti-Colonial movement, and the fact that it would have been mighty inconvennient to have to return all the land and property that had been stolen from the Jews when they were sent off to die.

[cheval de frise]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
I think Israel figures that it can't get much worse for Israel -- it can't be more hated or more threatened. Therefore, Israel has decided to show how they can make it worse for the Arab countries, if they want to keep this going.

Iran is a huge fly in this ointment, however.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, although the Iran situation is a real problem. I'm sure that Mossad's number one priority is knowing exactly how close Iran is to building a nuke...and figuring out which facilities need to be bombed to prevent it from happening. It wouldn't be the first time Israel conducted such an operation.

CDF

(this is kind of like visiting the snake pit at the zoo--interesting in a voyeuristic sort of way, but not something I want to make a habit of. What is it that makes some people more politically-oriented than others, and desirous of butting heads on politics-related web pages?)

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by cheval de frise
I think you've hit the nail on the head, although the Iran situation is a real problem. I'm sure that Mossad's number one priority is knowing exactly how close Iran is to building a nuke...and figuring out which facilities need to be bombed to prevent it from happening. It wouldn't be the first time Israel conducted such an operation.

CDF

(this is kind of like visiting the snake pit at the zoo--interesting in a voyeuristic sort of way, but not something I want to make a habit of. What is it that makes some people more politically-oriented than others, and desirous of butting heads on politics-related web pages?)

Really? Israel blew up nuke facilities before? You're just the knowledgable, big-brained kind of guy we need here. Are you sure you won't reconsider?

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by cheval de frise
What is it that makes some people more politically-oriented than others, and desirous of butting heads on politics-related web pages?)

A greater inclination to procrastinate and less to actually accomplish.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by cheval de frise
What is it that makes some people more politically-oriented than others, and desirous of butting heads on politics-related web pages?)

In Hank's case, it counts towards the community-service requirements for his parole.

[cheval de frise]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Really? Israel blew up nuke facilities before? You're just the knowledgable, big-brained kind of guy we need here. Are you sure you won't reconsider?

Nope, thanks. On the other, try googling "Osirak." I'm sure there's a Wikipedia entry or something on it. Otherwise, you can rely on my hazy memory of the facts. In the early '80's, Israel bombed a nuclear reactor that the French helped build in Iraq, at a place called Osirak (sp?). I think it was supposed to be a light water reactor but Israel believed it could be used to enrich uranium. They took it out with an airstrike. The political repercussions were somewhat less than you might expect--or at least it seemed that way at the time.

I understand how this might have escaped your notice--I don't know how old you were back then. I'm also giving you the benefit of the doubt regarding your attention span and school curriculum. After all, some kids focus exclusively on eating paste and jamming the fat end of the crayon up their nose.

Resume-padding for a White House internship, as it were.

CDF

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Adder
Perhaps by not invading Gaza in the first place?

what does Gaza have to do with Lebanon?

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Sexual Harassment Panda
Perhaps a silly question, but anyhoo...does the Arab hatred of Israel and Jews predate the establishment of the Israeli state? Is the basis of the fundie Muslim objections that this is holy ground, such that any group who occupied that land would be now hated (e.g., Mennonites, Yankee fans, African-American Muslims)? Or would they still hate Jews (perhaps slightly less) even if the state of Israel did not exist, or existed outside of the old Caliphate?

I'm trying to figure out how much of this conflict is historical (as in pre-1948) and how much of it has to do with (rightly or not) the perceptions of injuries inflicted upon Muslims in the half century since then.

I don’t think that the Muslims and Arabs hated Jews that much before Zionism caught momentum. I believed they hated the Western Christians much more because they were occupying most of their land. They believe that the western Christian nations artificially chopped up Arabia into colonies. I think they also believe that the Western Christians (namely Britain) gave part of Palestine to the Jews because of guilt for the Holocaust. They feel that the only reason there were sufficient Jews in the Holy land to create a nation was because the Western Christians controlled their land and let the Zionists in. In other words, if they had been in control of their own land at the critical time, the Zionists would have never been allowed into the country (at least not in large numbers). So (in their mind) if the western powers had honored their promise to the Arabs after WWI for revolting against the Turks there would be barely any Jews in Palestine, and certainly no Jewish state. So to them the west allowed the Jews in and then let them create their own country right on their land. So the Arab hatred of the Jews derives mainly out of nationalism and a feeling of being victimized by the Western Christian occupiers to the benefit of the Jews. This is why the secular Arab groups (like the PLO and the Baathists) hate Israel so much.

The rest of the Muslim world feels like the Arabs were mistreated and screwed because they were fellow Muslims. So they see the west and the Christian world allowing the Jews to "Screw" the Arabs because they were Muslim. They believe that if Muslims didn’t occupy Palestine, the Jews would never have been allowed to create a state there.

Obviously their version of history is a little screwed up.

They also believe that the Jews control the United States (clearly most of them aren’t that familiar with Idaho or how small the Jewish population in the US is) and that is why the US is so supportive of Israel.

And on top of all that, all the Muslims resent Israel, because Israel is now occupying the third most holy city in Islam: Jerusalem.

So in sum, the Jews, I don’t believe were that big on the Muslim radar screen, and had been tolerated and treated much better in the Muslim world than in the Christian world prior to the creation of Israel, but after that the Jews became the number one enemy.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by cheval de frise
Nope, thanks. On the other, try googling "Osirak." I'm sure there's a Wikipedia entry or something on it. Otherwise, you can rely on my hazy memory of the facts. In the early '80's, Israel bombed a nuclear reactor that the French helped build in Iraq, at a place called Osirak (sp?). I think it was supposed to be a light water reactor but Israel believed it could be used to enrich uranium. They took it out with an airstrike. The political repercussions were somewhat less than you might expect--or at least it seemed so at the time.

I understand how this might have escaped your notice--I don't know how old you were back then. I'm also giving you the benefit of the doubt regarding your attention span and school curriculum. After all, some kids focus exclusively on eating paste and jamming the fat end of the crayon up their nose.

Resume-padding for a White House internship, as it were.

CDF

wow! thanks! did anything else happen in, what did you call it.... Iraq- yeah,

did anything else happen in Iraq we might want to talk about here?