Offering constructive criticism to the social cripples in our midst since early 2005.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Pin the Tale on the Donkey
"I cannot swallow whole the view of Lincoln as the Great Emancipator... As a law professor and civil rights lawyer and as an African-American, I am fully aware of his limited views on race. Anyone who actually reads the Emancipation Proclamation knows it was more a military document than a clarion call for justice."

-- Senator Barack Obama

"I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

Abraham Lincoln, September 18, 1858


It may be statements like this that keep Obama from "swallowing whole" the idea of Lincoln as Great Emancipator.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
If we had hooked up last weekend you would have opened a French just to fuck with me, no?

Something from the Columbia River Valley in Penske's honor.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Last I recall, in both the Old Testament and the Torah*, Moses brought went up Mount Sinai, where Yahweh (G-D) gave him the Ten Commandments, which were written on 2 tablets of stone.

And he brought them down to his people, the Jewish people.

Now, unless you are a follower of Baal, the Golden Calf, or both - I'm, missing your point entirely.


* Atticus, when you show up in 17 hours, please feel free to confirm or deny, or both.

When AG shows up, he will explain that different denominations have different versions of the Ten Commandments. I know this is true, but I'm sure he knows the details. He is more godlike than I am.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
If I walked into Court and there was a big banner behind the judge's head that said "There is no God but Allah," I'd be a little nervous. Could be just me.

My point -- and somehow I missed Slave's original post, which I suspect was directed to me -- is that the government ought not endorse varieties of religion.

The "disrespect" bit was not about the Establishment Clause, but about Slave's suggestion that lefty Christians -- a term I now understand that he means to be synonymous with godless, lapsed Christians -- want Christ out of our society.

[SlaveNoMore]

Sidd Finch
Um, Slave? The world isn't Berkeley. Hell Berkeley isn't even Berkeley.

I grew up and practiced law in New York City.

I alternately lived on a eastern US college campus during a period of that time.

I lived for a short time in the PacNW.

And now, good god, I live on the Left Coast in the lovely city of San Francisco.

I don't know about you, pal - but my entire LIFE has been "Berkeley"*


* Albeit, some parts of Bizzaro World are much, much better dressed

[SlaveNoMore]

Sidd Finch
If I walked into Court and there was a big banner behind the judge's head that said "There is no God but Allah," I'd be a little nervous. Could be just me.

I believe they are working to implement this in Belgium. Time will tell

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
When AG shows up, he will explain that different denominations have different versions of the Ten Commandments. I know this is true, but I'm sure he knows the details. He is more godlike than I am.

Seeing as it been translated into Greek, then Latin, then German, and etc., this is not surprising.

Hopefully, he will delve into substantial changes rather than mere translation anomalies

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
"I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."

Abraham Lincoln, September 18, 1858


It may be statements like this that keep Obama from "swallowing whole" the idea of Lincoln as Great Emancipator.

"don't ask- don't tell (or we'll kick you out)"

Bill Clinton 1994

[SlaveNoMore]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
My point -- and somehow I missed Slave's original post, which I suspect was directed to me -- is that the government ought not endorse varieties of religion.

I guess our disagreement then lies on the definition of "endorse."

Seems fitting to have this discussion on Independence weekend.

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refuted his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred. to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. --And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
.When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws blah blah blah

Alot of that was trumped up to get access to America's oil.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
She was a cowgirl. Its not a deragatory term, except in some overly sensitive third parties delusions. Its descriptive. She went from that background to the highest judicial office in the country. If it was me, I would want it brought up in any semi-biographical description of me to serve as an example. It is the American dream, its her life as she portrays it and Bush was right to note it and by noting it celebrate her journey.

The left is so out touch with reality it is scary. This is on par with the DC official who used niggardly in a proper context and had to resign. Get a grip. Although as Spanky noted, its this type of stuff that solidifies the Republican majority.

2. This discussion is recockulous.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
When judges start putting the Ten Commandments in their courtrooms, and they are not making an academic observation about the importance of some of those commandments in the development of our legal tradition, it smells like using a government office and taxpayer dollars to endorse a particular set of religious views. I don't care for that, and if I were Jewish I'd be particularly irked.

And I think it's a sign of weakness of some level that some people are working so hard to get their religious views some sort of governmental imprimatur instead of worrying whether they are otherwise leading Christian lives.

I kind of agree with this, but I also think we have differentiate between religion and God, no? Our democracy is littered with references to God or the creator (DofI, our coinage, etc), and it seems as though the time has passed to oust those from the lexicon. Religion, however, is quite different matter, especially a court room. The Ten Commandments poses a difficult question because, while religious in nature, it also forms the bedrock for our legal system. Tough call.

[SlaveNoMore]

sgtclub
The Ten Commandments poses a difficult question because, while religious in nature, it also forms the bedrock for our legal system. Tough call.

Tough call? The bedrock of Government was John Locke. 'Nuff said.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Tough call? The bedrock of Government was John Locke. 'Nuff said.

So what? Does that justify infusing government with Judeo/Christian symbols? If so, why the establishment clause? Or do you read it literally?

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
I grew up and practiced law in New York City.

I alternately lived on a eastern US college campus during a period of that time.

I lived for a short time in the PacNW.

And now, good god, I live on the Left Coast in the lovely city of San Francisco.

I don't know about you, pal - but my entire LIFE has been "Berkeley"*


* Albeit, some parts of Bizzaro World are much, much better dressed

It's not all about you personally. Like I said. Move to somewhere more congenial. There are tons and tons and tons of places more congenial to your views. Hell, most places I have lived are more congenial to your views.

eta, Isn't wrapping yourself in the flag disrespecting the flag?