General discussion - Mom and Dad Esq.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by dtb
Now Atticus, you know I love[d] you (once), so please know that I have nothing against you, and know you are all smart and shit.

That said, there is something ever-so-slightly condescending and superior in your tone that rather rankles.

Yes, yes; anyone who takes it that way must be retarded and/or willfully obtuse, but, there it is.

We know you're proud of the Mrs. and people actually GAPE IN AWE at the fact that she delivered children without pain medication. But you know what? BFD. Great. Big whoop, etc. To draw some sort of conclusion about anything based on a person's (or a sex's) decision whether to use pain medication during childbirth is patently absurd. Furthermore, it is unseemly to boast about it (and whether or not you are intending to "boast" -- that's how it sounds), and insulting to, well, me, and perhaps others who are taking issue with your theory.

Um, I'm inclined to believe that what people read into my posts was motivated far more by the politics of birth than it was by, say, my actual tone. Elsewhere on these boards I could say that anyone who eats meat is a murderer, or people who seek out DP encounters are total fucking whores, and it would not be seen as tramping on anyone's feelings. But if you say "We chose Demerol over an epidural because our midwife convinced us the risk was lower" and you're shitting on anyone who had an epidural, apparently, because someone in the room is going to think you're saying they unnecessarily put their baby at risk (or whatever).

Considering the endless pro-drug caveats with which I qualified my original posts on this topic, and my expressed support for a woman who flatly stated she would seek out a c-section instead of having another 42 hours of back labor, I have learned that even talking about one's own birth experience is judging even when you say it's not. It's too much of a minefield.

I think it says something that we can talk about "spanking or no spanking?" without calling anyone an abuser, but we can't talk about NCB without someone being called a misogynist who wants women to suffer. I'm a misogynist and my wife is both a misogynist and a masochist.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
I'm a misogynist ....

In fairness AttiC, are you really a full fledged misogynist or just a misogynist*?


*as related to hatred solely: (i) induced by a woman's use of drugs to mitigate pain during the birthing process; or (ii) resulting in a desire to inflict pain on a woman during the birthing process by withholding pain relieving drugs from her.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
As usual, you're not helping.

To be accurate, he's not helping *you*. Heh.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Um, I'm inclined to believe that what people read into my posts was motivated far more by the politics of birth than it was by, say, my actual tone. Elsewhere on these boards I could say that anyone who eats meat is a murderer, or people who seek out DP encounters are total fucking whores, and it would not be seen as tramping on anyone's feelings. But if you say "We chose Demerol over an epidural because our midwife convinced us the risk was lower" and you're shitting on anyone who had an epidural, apparently, because someone in the room is going to think you're saying they unnecessarily put their baby at risk (or whatever).

Considering the endless pro-drug caveats with which I qualified my original posts on this topic, and my expressed support for a woman who flatly stated she would seek out a c-section instead of having another 42 hours of back labor, I have learned that even talking about one's own birth experience is judging even when you say it's not. It's too much of a minefield.

I think it says something that we can talk about "spanking or no spanking?" without calling anyone an abuser, but we can't talk about NCB without someone being called a misogynist who wants women to suffer. I'm a misogynist and my wife is both a misogynist and a masochist.

I think penske has some gasoline he'd let you borrow to fight this fire.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Um, I'm inclined to believe that what people read into my posts was motivated far more by the politics of birth than it was by, say, my actual tone. Elsewhere on these boards I could say that anyone who eats meat is a murderer, or people who seek out DP encounters are total fucking whores, and it would not be seen as tramping on anyone's feelings. But if you say "We chose Demerol over an epidural because our midwife convinced us the risk was lower" and you're shitting on anyone who had an epidural, apparently, because someone in the room is going to think you're saying they unnecessarily put their baby at risk (or whatever).

Considering the endless pro-drug caveats with which I qualified my original posts on this topic, and my expressed support for a woman who flatly stated she would seek out a c-section instead of having another 42 hours of back labor, I have learned that even talking about one's own birth experience is judging even when you say it's not. It's too much of a minefield.

I think it says something that we can talk about "spanking or no spanking?" without calling anyone an abuser, but we can't talk about NCB without someone being called a misogynist who wants women to suffer. I'm a misogynist and my wife is both a misogynist and a masochist.

My main point is that "drug-based pain control" and "epidural" should not be used interchangeably. My secondary point is that an entire society that delivers children while having an otherworldly detachment from their nether regions will probably not have the same understanding as their millions of female ancestors that life has a cost.

We all misread you? If everyone else thinks that you are saying something that you are not saying, maybe you misread the way the above statement reads to the general population. I couldn't even follow the 80% argument you claimed I was making. I was just interpreting the plain meaning of your statement.

I am not sending you Kim Possible's phone number if you keep up this charade that we've jumped all over you for no good reason.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
We all misread you? If everyone else thinks that you are saying something that you are not saying, maybe you misread the way the above statement reads to the general population. I couldn't even follow the 80% argument you claimed I was making. I was just interpreting the plain meaning of your statement.

I am not sending you Kim Possible's phone number if you keep up this charade that we've jumped all over you for no good reason.

You're too easy (duh). You should demand an apology for AG's sharp criticism of women who attempt to avoid God's punishment for Eve's sin.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
We all misread you? If everyone else thinks that you are saying something that you are not saying, maybe you misread the way the above statement reads to the general population. I couldn't even follow the 80% argument you claimed I was making. I was just interpreting the plain meaning of your statement.

I think it all makes sense with appropriately placed asterisks, no?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
You're too easy (duh). You should demand an apology for AG's sharp criticism of women who attempt to avoid God's punishment for Eve's sin.

I thought that punishment was menstruation, no?

[nononono]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Um, I'm inclined to believe that what people read into my posts was motivated far more by the politics of birth than it was by, say, my actual tone. Elsewhere on these boards I could say that anyone who eats meat is a murderer, or people who seek out DP encounters are total fucking whores, and it would not be seen as tramping on anyone's feelings. But if you say "We chose Demerol over an epidural because our midwife convinced us the risk was lower" and you're shitting on anyone who had an epidural, apparently, because someone in the room is going to think you're saying they unnecessarily put their baby at risk (or whatever).

Considering the endless pro-drug caveats with which I qualified my original posts on this topic, and my expressed support for a woman who flatly stated she would seek out a c-section instead of having another 42 hours of back labor, I have learned that even talking about one's own birth experience is judging even when you say it's not. It's too much of a minefield.

I think it says something that we can talk about "spanking or no spanking?" without calling anyone an abuser, but we can't talk about NCB without someone being called a misogynist who wants women to suffer. I'm a misogynist and my wife is both a misogynist and a masochist.

This is nothing. Be glad you are discussing this with smart people who can speak both intellectually and emotionally about the topic, and be advised that in the random world, this is pretty rare. Go check out some pregnancy boards and enjoy the visceral, ridiculous versions of this argument that happen there. Interestingly, the same issue occurs: someone says something about a certain choice; intentional or not, it strikes some as condescending (and let's face it, whenever you feel really good about how well something you (the general you) chose turned out and tell that to people, it can easily be or sound that way); and debates erupt. It's this topic (among many, but this is a biggie). It hits at something central and vital. So tread lightly, or at least know that you're going to get into this if you choose to...get into this!

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
I thought that punishment was menstruation, no?

That's too easy. Like ncs.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Um, I'm inclined to believe that what people read into my posts was motivated far more by the politics of birth than it was by, say, my actual tone. Elsewhere on these boards I could say that anyone who eats meat is a murderer, or people who seek out DP encounters are total fucking whores, and it would not be seen as tramping on anyone's feelings. But if you say "We chose Demerol over an epidural because our midwife convinced us the risk was lower" and you're shitting on anyone who had an epidural, apparently, because someone in the room is going to think you're saying they unnecessarily put their baby at risk (or whatever).

Considering the endless pro-drug caveats with which I qualified my original posts on this topic, and my expressed support for a woman who flatly stated she would seek out a c-section instead of having another 42 hours of back labor, I have learned that even talking about one's own birth experience is judging even when you say it's not. It's too much of a minefield.

I think it says something that we can talk about "spanking or no spanking?" without calling anyone an abuser, but we can't talk about NCB without someone being called a misogynist who wants women to suffer. I'm a misogynist and my wife is both a misogynist and a masochist.

Don't be so sensitive. It's mainly just Jewesses who are atacking you on this. Its a cultural thing. Your wife was raised in the mountain, right? Plus, didn't you say you guys are Christian Science?


New topic! how long should a mom breast feed before it gets to be sick?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Don't be so sensitive. It's mainly just Jewesses who are atacking you on this. Its a cultural thing. Your wife was raised in the mountain, right? Plus, didn't you say you guys are Christian Science?


New topic! how long should a mom breast feed before it gets to be sick?

Anytime up until puberty seems reasonable to me, but at a minimum 18 months.

eta: this was in re: the child, right? For the husband I think its the duration of the marriage once the "milk" comes in

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
New topic! how long should a mom breast feed before it gets to be sick?

As usual, you're not . . . oh, nevermind.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
We all misread you? If everyone else thinks that you are saying something that you are not saying, maybe you misread the way the above statement reads to the general population. I couldn't even follow the 80% argument you claimed I was making. I was just interpreting the plain meaning of your statement.

I am not sending you Kim Possible's phone number if you keep up this charade that we've jumped all over you for no good reason.

I don't think I said all other choices are bad, only that we were proud of having followed through with the choice we made even though it got rough. Does that mean I think all women who started out saying "no drugs, please!" but wound up saying "Epidural!" when they got into their thirteenth hour somehow pussed out? Unequivocally no, and I said as much. And then I said it again. But if you want to discuss it further, I suppose I will, until I have time to ketchup on the FB.

As for my philosophical musing about what we'll think of the miracle of birth when we succeed in making delivery just another outpatient elective medical procedure, I guess we'll never agree. Yes, we'll have that whole "Holy shit, I made a life!" response, but culturally some of that awe is tied up in the Awful Childbirth Stories we trade with each other. Will it be the same when those stories are as distant in time as, say, stories of slavery are to us today? Or was slavery a thoroughly more vivid influence on people's perceptions of each other when there were still living people who had experienced it firsthand? To me, the idea that we'll think about life differently when all pain is eliminated from childbirth (which is inevitable, and on balance a good thing) is self evident. But I guess I'm alone in that.

[Atticus Grinch]

In other parenting news, we experienced our first febrile seizure this morning. Many thanks to Bilmore (wherever he is) for telling me about them years ago so I didn't freak my shit. Okay, I didn't freak my shit as badly as I otherwise might have.