Offering constructive criticism to the social cripples in our midst since early 2005.

[Spanky]

As much as I respect Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, the fact that they held slaves is a blemish on their records. And to say that it was just the times diminishes the records of my two favorite founding fathers: Alexander Hamilton and Benjamin Franklin. Alexander Hamilton grew up in a Slave Holding society (in the Caribbean - where the entire economy was dependant on slaves) however, no matter how wealthy he got, he never had a slave and he was involved in abolition movements most of his adult life. Benjamin Franklin and John Adams also didn't hold slaves and were involved in abolition societies. Both were wealthy men.

So to give TJ and GW a pass does not give ample credit to these other founding fathers.

When Lincoln ran for the Republican nomination against Seward and others, he was the conservative nominee. In other words there were more "radical" candidates that were for the abolition of slavery - completely. Lincoln's argument that he would not alienate the rest of the country because of his own conservative stance, where his opponents "radical" views might tear the country apart, turned out to be wrong.

There were Republican radicals that believed that not only should all slaves be free, but also they should be treated equally under the law. These type of Republicans ended up controlling congress under Johnson's administration.

I think you need to give credit where credit is due.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
You do know Helms is out of office, right?

Yes, but Lincoln's been out a wee bit longer and apparently I'm not allowed to say anything about him, either, unless I preface it with the Ritual Trashing of Byrd.

I have clue as to the veracity, but rumors are floating that the Time notes reveal Rove as the leak. Not sure if this has been discussed, but it raises the possibility that Rove has committed perjury, treason and, more clearly violated the following:

TITLE 50--WAR AND NATIONAL DEFENSE

CHAPTER 15--NATIONAL SECURITY

SUBCHAPTER IV--PROTECTION OF CERTAIN NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION

Sec. 421. Protection of identities of certain United States undercover intelligence officers, agents, informants, and sources

(a) Disclosure of information by persons having or having had access to classified information that identifies covert agent Whoever, having or having had authorized access to classified information that identifies a covert agent, intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent's intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined not more than $50,000 or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

Now I know one of the Hillary socks may tell us that the Clintons killed hundreds, if not thousands of their associates for political gain, but exposing an uncover op is nevertheless sickening. We'll have to ask King Karl why he hates America and/or Baby Jebus.

Rove the leak?

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Spanky
As much as I respect Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, the fact that they held slaves is a blemish on their records. And to say that it was just the times diminishes the records of my two favorite founding fathers: Alexander Hamilton and Benjamin Franklin. Alexander Hamilton grew up in a Slave Holding society (in the Caribbean - where the entire economy was dependant on slaves) however, no matter how wealthy he got, he never had a slave and he was involved in abolition movements most of his adult life. Benjamin Franklin and John Adams also didn't hold slaves and were involved in abolition societies. Both were wealthy men.

So to give TJ and GW a pass does not give ample credit to these other founding fathers.

When Lincoln ran for the Republican nomination against Seward and others, he was the conservative nominee. In other words there were more "radical" candidates that were for the abolition of slavery - completely. Lincoln's argument that he would not alienate the rest of the country because of his own conservative stance, where his opponents "radical" views might tear the country apart, turned out to be wrong.

There were Republican radicals that believed that not only should all slaves be free, but also they should be treated equally under the law. These type of Republicans ended up controlling congress under Johnson's administration.

I think you need to give credit where credit is due.

Hamilton and Franklin weren't from Virginia, were they? As much as LA is different from NYC today (or Silicon Valley, or Simi Valley or Irvine or...), Virginia was a very different (and insular*) society than was New York City or Boston or wherever Hamilton and Franklin were from.

Which is to say, everybody and their brother, who could own slaves in Virginia, did. I agree that I don't give them a pass, but Jefferson is one of the greatest human beings to live in the last 500 years. Contra George W.. He was a simple religious farmer who volunteered to serve our country in whatever capacity he could, but wasn't really a revolutionary thinker.

Hello

* I found out reading Undaunted Courage that it was so insular that Jefferson chose his own neighbor in Albemarle county, Meriwether Lewis, to lead what became the Lewis and Clark expedition. Then again, it was partly because he felt he could not trust almost any military officers since Hamilton (or something like that) had loaded up the officers corps with anti-Jeffersonites (or something like that) just before Jefferson took office.

Hello again

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Maybe he is a "self-proclaimed jew". Like Hillary.

Fucking give up the Hilary fixation. You're beginning to sound like Slave pining away for Paigow.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Wonk, you know I love you, platonically, nttawwt, and
I ain't here to convert atheists into believers
I'm just trying to say the way (the Union destroyed) school need teachers
The way Kathie Lee needed Regis that's the way yall need Jesus

Just as your fellow Chicagolander Kanye said

I respect the dead prophets as men of wisdom and compassion. But I prefer my communing be with God emself, without the intercession of any false gods and their murderous idolators.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Fucking give up the Hilary fixation. You're beginning to sound like Slave pining away for Paigow.

Beginning?

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Hamilton and Franklin weren't from Virginia, were they? As much as LA is different from NYC today (or Silicon Valley, or Simi Valley or Irvine or...), Virginia was a very different (and insular*) society than was New York City or Boston or wherever Hamilton and Franklin were from.

You should read my posts more carefully. As I said Hamilton was from the Caribbean Island, Nevis. In Nevis and the surrounding British West Indies, slavery was more entrenched, had existed longer and was more important to the economy than Virginia. Sugar Cane was completely dependent on Slavery. Even though he was raised around slaves, and in a society where the ethics of slavery was a given, he was an abolitionist.

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me Which is to say, everybody and their brother, who could own slaves in Virginia, did.

That is simply not true. Many wealthy Virginians and other wealthy southernors chose to not have slaves. And both Washington and Jefferson knew there were problems with slavery as Washington freed his upon his death.

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me I agree that I don't give them a pass, but Jefferson is one of the greatest human beings to live in the last 500 years. Contra George W.. He was a simple religious farmer who volunteered to serve our country in whatever capacity he could, but wasn't really a revolutionary thinker..

I agree with this except he was not a simple farmer. He was a very sophisticated and worldly land owning Aristrocat. A true believer in the enlightenment. He was also not very religious. John Adams considered him an Atheist. Jefferson denied the divinity of Jesus and produced the Jefferson bible that had all the "superstitious stuff" deleted. In other words all the miracles etc. He was a deist who believed in the great watchmaker theory - God created the universe but there is no evidence that he is involved with its current state of affairs. However, unlike Adams and Hamilton stated, he was no atheist. In fact he thought Atheists should be be able to testify in court because their oath could not be trusted.

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me * I found out reading Undaunted Courage that it was so insular that Jefferson chose his own neighbor in Albemarle county, Meriwether Lewis, to lead what became the Lewis and Clark expedition. Then again, it was partly because he felt he could not trust almost any military officers since Hamilton (or something like that) had loaded up the officers corps with anti-Jeffersonites (or something like that) just before Jefferson took office.

Hello again

The military was known to have strong Federalist sympathies.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Virginia was a very different (and insular*) society than was New York City or Boston or wherever Hamilton and Franklin were from.

Which is to say, everybody and their brother, who could own slaves in Virginia, did. I agree that I don't give them a pass, but Jefferson is one of the greatest human beings to live in the last 500 years. Contra George W.. He was a simple religious farmer who volunteered to serve our country in whatever capacity he could, but wasn't really a revolutionary thinker.

Hello

I'm sure Sally Hemmings's descendants (and Jefferson's, come to think of it) would all feel much better if they were to come to know this simple truth and accept it.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Spanky
You should read my posts more carefully. As I said Hamilton was from the Caribbean Island, Nevis. In Nevis and the surrounding British West Indies, slavery was more entrenched, had existed longer and was more important to the economy than Virginia. Sugar Cane was completely dependent on Slavery. Even though he was raised around slaves, and in a society where the ethics of slavery was a given, he was an abolitionist.

If I read everything here carefully I'd never have time to sleep. But I digress. If Sugar Cane was completely dependent on Slavery, I'd imagine that Hamilton didn't have Sugar Cane crops. Whereas, Mt. Vernon and Monticello definitely has an agricultural bent to it,

But slaves cost money. If you didn't have reasons to have slaves, you wouldn't have slaves.

Originally posted by Spanky
That is simply not true. Many wealthy Virginians and other wealthy southernors chose to not have slaves. And both Washington and Jefferson knew there were problems with slavery as Washington freed his upon his death.

Were these others farmers?

Originally posted by Spanky
I agree with this except he was not a simple farmer. He was a very sophisticated and worldly land owning Aristrocat. A true believer in the enlightenment. He was also not very religious. John Adams considered him an Atheist. Jefferson denied the divinity of Jesus and produced the Jefferson bible that had all the "superstitious stuff" deleted. In other words all the miracles etc. He was a deist who believed in the great watchmaker theory - God created the universe but there is no evidence that he is involved with its current state of affairs. However, unlike Adams and Hamilton stated, he was no atheist. In fact he thought Atheists should be be able to testify in court because their oath could not be trusted.

I take what I said back in part. Washington was fairly simple in my view, especially compared to the others who you are comparing him to. But I agree with you about the religious part, and thought about editing my post 5 minutes after I wrote it when I realized that characterization was not accurate.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by taxwonk
I'm sure Sally Hemmings's descendants (and Jefferson's, come to think of it) would all feel much better if they were to come to know this simple truth and accept it.

After the Lincoln monument and the Vietnam Wall, we went to the Jefferson monument. I've usually been there between 11:00 PM and 1:00 AM, so I was surprised to find that there is a nice bookstore and museum that you can reach if you take a hidden elevator down a few flights.

At the bookstore, I asked the black guy behind the counter what other people were buying that could be considered "readable". So he suggested American Sphinx. I bought it, and breathed a sigh of relief that he didn't steer me to the Sally Hemings wing.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Yes, but Lincoln's been out a wee bit longer and apparently I'm not allowed to say anything about him, either, unless I preface it with the Ritual Trashing of Byrd.

Okay, deal. Do you want me to email my Kleagle Byrd photo collection?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Fucking give up the Hilary fixation. You're beginning to sound like Slave pining away for Paigow.

I will stop pointing out Hillary's crimes, lies and other odious behaviour as soon as she gets the fuck off the dole or the government exempts me from the tax code. I didn't claim she was a jew for political advantage, she did. In my youth, as a child, I studied at the local synagogue and learned the hebrew tongue, and yet I would never make the claim that I was jewish, for political, economic, sexual or other gain...uh....maybe for the sex.

She should answer for her lies.

Further, when is she going to explain why she lies about being named after the first man to climb Everest? Why would she lie about that? What was the advantage? Was she trying to lock up the mountain climber vote?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Beginning?

I have not yet begun to fight. She must be stopped, in AlBore's words, at any cost.

Do any of y'all take heed of Dick Morris' warnings?

[Nut Penske]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Further, when is she going to explain why she lies about being named after the first man to climb Everest? Why would she lie about that? What was the advantage? Was she trying to lock up the mountain climber vote?

I take it all back.

A true nut! What a nut!

Completely nutty!