Politics As Usual

[Not Me]

Originally posted by baltassoc
Okay, you've made your choice. Criminals they are.

No, I think they are POWs from terrorist organizations who have declared war on the US and that the GC doesn't apply to POWs from terrorist organizations.

Originally posted by baltassoc
From the rest of the world's standpoint, we can do whatever we want to with them as part of our criminal justice system. We're the one's who decided that criminals get due process. But those rules apply to everybody.

Even POWs?

Originally posted by baltassoc
And re: treason. Treason isn't enough? What's deficient about it, the penalty? You can't get any more dead than dead. Should we execute the person twice?

Treason is the mechanism the drafters came up with the deal with this situation. Switch sides in a war and it's treason. Two witnesses and you're dead. Literally. But the two witnesses must have been an important part, 'cause they included it there where it hasn't been included for other crimes. Perhaps the framers were concerned that treason might be the type of crime that one should be very, very careful about accusing.

Is treason the exclusive remedy? Is the government obligated to try the person for treason in lieu of holding them as a POW?

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
If that story is remotely true, heads should roll and people should be taken down.

But I cannot help noticing towards the end - how the tone completely changes and the prisoner starts speaking (in non-broken english, for that matter) about his "ass" and his "dick"

Not quite sure I catch your meaning (or the reference) .. but I'll note that the citation was to the "sworn statement by Detainee No. __________, taken 21 Jan 2004." That would indicate the statement was taken by one of the investigators preparing the Taguba report, and perhaps while the individual was still in U.S. custody. I doubt any of those folks were putting words into his mouth.

S_A_M

[Not Me]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
If that story is remotely true, heads should roll and people should be taken down.

Agreed. The story, though, sounds like those faked photos that people were claiming were from Abu Ghraib but were shown to be from a porn site. Or the one of the soldier that was peeing on a hooded guy that was shown to be a fake.

It is just so damn funny to me how Ty just accepts any allegations printed on the internet as true when it supports his side. LOL!

[SlaveNoMore]

Secret_Agent_Man
Not quite sure I catch... the reference

Good god man. Stop posting immediately and start renting some movies.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Not quite sure I catch your meaning (or the reference) .. but I'll note that the citation was to the "sworn statement by Detainee No. __________, taken 21 Jan 2004." That would indicate the statement was taken by one of the investigators preparing the Taguba report, and perhaps while the individual was still in U.S. custody. I doubt any of those folks were putting words into his mouth.

S_A_M

I remember in HS someone was selling vials of what they claimed was government grown weed, stolen from the experimental farm down in Alabama- extreme THC levels- gov't engineered!
It had this official looking typed label, and said "Paranoi #347." We lined up.

Years later I saw the guy and reminded him and he told me he took some standard Columbian, bought some vials and typed some labels.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Good god man. Stop posting immediately and start renting some movies.

So true. The lack of even rudimentary film knowledge by the posters on this board is probably the biggest handicap for me here.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Good god man. Stop posting immediately and start renting some movies.

If the Wolf were on the motherfucker, he'd sit S_A_M down in front of a portable DVD player or something.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I remember in HS someone was selling vials of what they claimed was government grown weed, stolen from the experimental farm down in Alabama- extreme THC levels- gov't engineered!
It had this official looking typed label, and said "Paranoi #347." We lined up.

Years later I saw the guy and reminded him and he told me he took some standard Columbian, bought some vials and typed some labels.

This is how grim it is for conservatives on the whole torture thing. You're down to suggesting that the facts we're reading in the mainstream media are made up.

N.B. -- Politically, it's not a winning strategy. But I like your little story.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
This is how grim it is for conservatives on the whole torture thing. You're down to suggesting that the facts we're reading in the mainstream media are made up.

N.B. -- Politically, it's not a winning strategy. But I like your little story.

politically for which group? you mean that Atticus is too bugged to consider voting for W?

at this point most thinking voters remember there is always BS dug up and know if they elect Kerry there'd be similar crap.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
So true. The lack of even rudimentary film knowledge by the posters on this board is probably the biggest handicap for me here.

Spot on Hank, spot. on. Thinking about films reminds of films that I have seen which reminds me of Weird Science, because it is a film that I have seen. Think about the plot, two guys, Wyatt and Gary, learning about science and satisfying their adolescent psychosexual angst. In order to fulfill their hormone driven curiousity about the sex they utilize their computer, some other various and sundry accessories, like Barbie doll heads and the fashion concept of the bra on the head to create a major sexbabe, who shows them the ropes, iamos, iykwim.

Speaking of which, is a bra on the head torture or does the more grungy nature of panties tip that balance?

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
We lined up.

I'm seeing a trend here. Where I'm from, they say Republicans are Democrats who have been mugged or who grew up and paid taxes. Anecdotal evidence here suggests that Republicans are people who have taken illegal mind-altering substances.

Political unification theory? Where is Temp Sock when I need someone to counter this theory with evidence that criminals are overwhelmingly democrats?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
I'm seeing a trend here. Where I'm from, they say Republicans are Democrats who have been mugged or who grew up and paid taxes. Anecdotal evidence here suggests that Republicans are people who have taken illegal mind-altering substances.

Why does it have to be an either/or, why can't they be all three?

[The Larry Davis Experience]

Bouncing around the internet tonight I found this post from Juan Cole's blog. I don't think this Juan is any relation to Juan the Marine, but I guess only Hank can tell us who the true Juan is.

Anyway, Juan C has an interesting exchange with a U of Chicago prof regarding the admin's decision to avoid early local elections in Iraq because (the writer asserts) it wanted to be able to have ongoing control of the country, particularly the free market economic reforms.

Cole's entry linked to this interview with Jay Garner, the first guy we installed to run Iraq. I hadn't seen this before, and of course it should be looked at through the disgruntled former employee lens, but I found it interesting that in his estimation he was fired because he wanted these early elections.

"My preference was to put the Iraqis in charge as soon as we can, and do it with some form of elections ... I just thought it was necessary to rapidly get the Iraqis in charge of their destiny."

Asked by the reporter Greg Palast if he foresaw negative repercussions from the subsequent US imposition of mass privatisation , Gen Garner said: "I don't know ... we'll just have to wait and see." It would have been better for the Iraqis to take decisions themselves, even if they made mistakes, he said.

I realize it might be a violation of the TOS to out him like this, but this quote is the final piece in the puzzle which leads me to believe that Hello is actually Jay Garner.

More to the point, whether you believe these guys or not about the motivating factors beind the admin's policy in this regard, it is again tempting to think about how this occupation may have gone more smoothly if there was a more immediate and public focus on getting elected leaders in power, even if the true "sovereignty" of those leaders had to be limited for pratical reasons. I realize the admin feared certain kinds of leaders who could ascend to power, but just like with Bush's nonanswer on Meet the Press you can't use that to dodge the fact that in a democracy, people are allowed to choose those kinds of people to lead them.

The point in the Cole post about the possibility that we would have had a chance to focused Sadr's energy on building political power and a constituency in conventional ways (read: pork spending) rather than building the physical power of the Mahdi Army rings very true, to me at least. Especially now that Sadr's public statements indicate a desire to work within the new political system at the same time as the Mahdi army keeps hanging together despite several agreements from Sadr to disband it.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by The Larry Davis Experience
I realize the admin feared certain kinds of leaders who could ascend to power, but just like with Bush's nonanswer on Meet the Press you can't use that to dodge the fact that in a democracy, people are allowed to choose those kinds of people to lead them.

Self government isn't just about majority rule. It is also about protection of the minorities from oppression by the majority. Until the latter can be assured, you run the risk of civil war. Rome wasn't built in a day.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
It's all part and parcel of the big Left-Right-Left Conspiracy wherein the Clintons and the Bushes had a secret meeting - brokered by the Israelis - at a Masonic Temple and plotted to deep-six Kerry in '04 in exchange for the Hillary nomination in '08.

Very, very hush-hush stuff.

Just very, not very, very.