A Forum for Grinches and Ho-Ho-Hoes

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by bilmore
The persona, in my mind, isn't composed so much of Dean's actual positions - heck, he was fairly anti-tax, anti-welfare when he started the campaign - but what he became in the minds of the far left. Even now, he's assumed a position so far to the left of reality in their minds that it's unreal. He's a demigod to the HC Du set. He's a lot like Ashcroft in that respect, in that the public persona that's been built is fairly far off the mark.

Guilty by association, eh?

No wonder your view of Democrats is shaped by what you see on the "HC DU."

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The Dean persona wasn't right or left in any meaningful sense -- it was anti- the Iraq war.

I agree with this, and would add that it was also anti-Washington.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Guilty by association, eh?

No wonder your view of Democrats is shaped by what you see on the "HC DU."

How come we all have to be guilty by association but he gets to yap about how he's an atheist so all the religious right bullshit can't be thrown at him? Why, gatti, why?

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by bilmore
Are we speaking of the operational wisdom of the tactics of the jump chosen, or the basic morality of the choice to jump?

Operational wisdom, not basic morality, although many religions hold that suicide is a sin.

S_A_M

P.S. If we're to start judging our policy initiatives according to their basic morality, we're going to need a whole new set of political metrics -- and it would be helpful to agree on a common morality.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank
the Saudi 9/11 phone call rant was centrist?

The language of "left" and "right" really doesn't work that well when you start talking about foreign affairs.

Originally posted by bilmore
The persona, in my mind, isn't composed so much of Dean's actual positions - heck, he was fairly anti-tax, anti-welfare when he started the campaign - but what he became in the minds of the far left. Even now, he's assumed a position so far to the left of reality in their minds that it's unreal. He's a demigod to the HC Du set. He's a lot like Ashcroft in that respect, in that the public persona that's been built is fairly far off the mark.

You forgot to mention that he's pro-gun, too. But now you're not making a point about Dean -- you're back to characterizing the DU folks. Hank is the only other person here who seems to care about what they're thinking.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
What if it is Butch and Sundance? You know, there was a good reason to jump- even though they didn't want to, they knew they needed to.

You're fighting the analogy.

They most assuredly had a very good reason to jump. (And Butch did not tell Sundance that the water would surely be deep enough to cushion their fall, or that the fish would bear them above the waves in triumphant splendor after they surfaced.)

S_A_M

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
they have exercised their new democracy in a rather enthusiatic and heartwarming way

They don't live in a "democracy" yet, unless you're taking extreme liberties with that word. Maybe it will all work out in the end, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

this may well be the first step in bringing an entire region into a more democratic, less despotic era

Oddly enough, you don't see many other Arabs clamoring for their country to look more like Iraq. Which suggests that if this was the first step, the journey may be a thousand miles long, and it may be Maoists (or their functional equivalent) who end up telling the story.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Oddly enough, you don't see many other Arabs clamoring for their country to look more like Iraq. Which suggests that if this was the first step, the journey may be a thousand miles long, and it may be Maoists (or their functional equivalent) who end up telling the story.

Do you think the reason is because they live in TOTALITARIAN SOCIETIES?

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Do you think the reason is because they live in TOTALITARIAN SOCIETIES?

Cool. Are we invading Saudi Arabia next?

Originally posted by bilmore
So, we've deposed a mass killer of his own people and others

I already said I was down with the post hoc reasons for the invasion. Deposing mass killers is a good thing.

the people who have been freed have expressed, through polls, an overwhelming happiness with both this deposing and their resulting freedom, they have exercised their new democracy in a rather enthusiatic and heartwarming way, this may well be the first step in bringing an entire region into a more democratic, less despotic era

I sure hope so.

, and you're bitter about this because it goes against your core values?

Scary core values.

I don't know where you get the bitter bit from - I was responding to a post by Club that suggested that everyone who opposed the war from the beginning is now saying "golly gee, all's well that ends well and that Bush guy was right all along."

As for my "core values," if an expectation that the government isn't going to railroad us into a war on false pretenses is scary, well .... boo!

I'll tell you what's scary: a belief that the ends justify the means. By the way, what's the minimum acceptable ratio of Iraqis we killed to Iraqis who voted on Sunday?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Do you think the reason is because they live in TOTALITARIAN SOCIETIES?

I don't think that most Arab countries are totalitarian, as oppressive and unfree as they may be. And no -- I think the reason is that notwithstanding the vote that took place on Sunday, what Iraq looks like now is not what most people want their countries to look like.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by ironweed
Deposing mass killers is a good thing.

Odd that many Republicans did not support our military activities to stop genocide in the Balkans. Many of the people who are now insisting that deposing Hussein was a necessary and sufficient reason to invade Iraq opposed Clinton's efforts to stop Milosevic. And, with a few exceptions, they don't seem to want to get involved in stopping what Sudan is doing in Darfur, either. Or deposing Robert Mugabe. Or the junta that rules Myanmar.

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Originally posted by ironweed
Deposing mass killers is a good thing.

Sometimes it takes about 20 years to see the truth in a statement like this.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by ironweed
I'll tell you what's scary: a belief that the ends justify the means.

Do you mean as a normative statement, or "in this case"? I mean, I think our entry into WWII was a case where the ends did justify the means. We killed a whole helluva lot of people - but was that an evil thing? Or, would NOT participating have been the evil? How far do you carry non-violence? Simply watch the kid get beaten up across the street, or cross over and use violence to save him? Sometimes, the ends DO justify the means.

By the way, what's the minimum acceptable ratio of Iraqis we killed to Iraqis who voted on Sunday?

We'll have to ask the Iraqis that question, won't we? So far, from the polling I've seen, they think we're still in that acceptable range.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
How come we all have to be guilty by association but he gets to yap about how he's an atheist so all the religious right bullshit can't be thrown at him? Why, gatti, why?

you're the party of inclusion. we admit we hate others.