Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Or go back to the Balfour Declaration. You can always find an earlier cause. The destruction of the Temple.



Yep.



Yes, it's a mess now. I think the answer has to do with figuring out what Israel can do to make Palestinians want to back someone more moderate than Hamas.



Look at Northern Ireland. There are a lot of key figures on both sides who were closely tied to terrorist acts at an earlier time. Clausewitz said that war was the continuation of politics by other means. Terrorism is too, no?

Stage 1: Law (1948)

Here are the laws. We’ll split the land with you.

Stage 2: Law of War (1967)

We’ll attack you using conventional war methods.

Stage 3: Mindless Negotiations (1980s)

We’ll negotiate, you won’t do so in good faith.

Stage 4: Two State Solution

Bill Clinton has us within a breath of solution. Oh, wait… at the last minute, Mr. Arafat says no?

Stage 5: Here’s Gaza. Good Luck. (2005-Present)

We can’t even… Because it’s clear your rulers don’t want a solution.

Stage 6: Let’s Copy ISIS! (2023)

We’ve tried everything. Sorry about your human shields.

. . .

Israel is not and should not be held hostage to miscreants who do not negotiate in good faith.

And, Hamas’ own charter calls for the destruction of Israel. What the hell does one expect Israel to do? It’s bent over backwards to live in peace and is faced with religious zealots unsatisfied with anything but its destruction.

It has no choice but to do what it’s doing. And to its credit, the Israelis, being good and decent people, who do not revel in the murder of civilians, it is doing so reverently and with extreme regret.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Or go back to the Balfour Declaration. You can always find an earlier cause. The destruction of the Temple.

I meant when did people decide they wanted to destroy Israel. You’re talking about when people started wanted to kill Jews. That’s a constant from forever to now.

Yes, it's a mess now. I think the answer has to do with figuring out what Israel can do to make Palestinians want to back someone more moderate than Hamas.

Okay how does someone oppose people with guns and rockets who are willing to chop babies heads off, without given them guns and rockets?

Look at Northern Ireland. There are a lot of key figures on both sides who were closely tied to terrorist acts at an earlier time. Clausewitz said that war was the continuation of politics by other means. Terrorism is too, no?

Those people were much closer to each other, neither was the devil, NO?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Or go back to the Balfour Declaration. You can always find an earlier cause. The destruction of the Temple.



Yep.



Yes, it's a mess now. I think the answer has to do with figuring out what Israel can do to make Palestinians want to back someone more moderate than Hamas.



Look at Northern Ireland. There are a lot of key figures on both sides who were closely tied to terrorist acts at an earlier time. Clausewitz said that war was the continuation of politics by other means. Terrorism is too, no?

“One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.” Right. But when one goes to that level, he takes himself outside the rule of law and declares himself subject to the rule of power.

If one chooses that arena, he’d better have serious power. Hamas does not. So the following becomes inescapable:

Hamas are a mix of corrupt sorts who don’t care about sacrificing innocent Palestinians and fools bought off cheaply by their Iranian financiers. Useful idiots.

The corrupt and stupid tend to cause situations where they die with a lot of collateral damage. That’s what’s happening here. Israel stands in relation to Gaza where we stood in relation to Afghanistan in 2001.

Hopefully, Israel does it better.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

The responsibility for the deaths of innocent Palestinians in the Israeli siege lies exclusively with Hamas

No, not exclusively. Israel also has agency.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Hamas are a mix of corrupt sorts who don’t care about sacrificing innocent Palestinians

That is what Ian Paisley said about about the IRA. I (nor do I think any of us) do not know enough about the internal workings of Palestinian politics to have any idea whether the equivalent of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness are possible.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Stage 1: Law (1948)

Here are the laws. We’ll split the land with you.

Stage 2: Law of War (1967)

We’ll attack you using conventional war methods.

Stage 3: Mindless Negotiations (1980s)

We’ll negotiate, you won’t do so in good faith.

Stage 4: Two State Solution

Bill Clinton has us within a breath of solution. Oh, wait… at the last minute, Mr. Arafat says no?

Stage 5: Here’s Gaza. Good Luck. (2005-Present)

We can’t even… Because it’s clear your rulers don’t want a solution.

Stage 6: Let’s Copy ISIS! (2023)

We’ve tried everything. Sorry about your human shields.

I would have thought that a man of your intellect would not stoop to treating the Arab world as a single, undifferentiated mass. Egypt and Jordan fought multiple wars with Israel and then reached a durable peace, to the point that Egypt warned Israel that Hamas was up to something before the attacks.

It has no choice but to do what it’s doing. And to its credit, the Israelis, being good and decent people, who do not revel in the murder of civilians, it is doing so reverently and with extreme regret.

Isn't it pretty to think so? This is the triumph of wishful rhetoric over thought. There are all sorts of other subjects where you would be all over someone who said something this insipid.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

No, not exclusively. Israel also has agency.

And Israel is using that agency to act appropriately. Its providing time for Gazans to evacuate, and it is telling people near Hamas locations that it is going to bomb those locations, to avoid civilian casualties.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

I would have thought that a man of your intellect would not stoop to treating the Arab world as a single, undifferentiated mass. Egypt and Jordan fought multiple wars with Israel and then reached a durable peace, to the point that Egypt warned Israel that Hamas was up to something before the attacks.

The aggregation works here because it's all (ostensibly, or as justification) about the Palestinians. Every war was waged in significant part if not entirely to liberate those people (whom no other Arab country is willing to accept, including currently, Egypt). At issue here is not whether some Arab nations have reached peace with Israel - it's whether historically Israel has tried time and time again to give the Palestinians a solution, and to live in peace, only to be attacked or had peace efforts scuttled at the last minute because of bad faith actors such as Arafat, who were more interested in keeping their power and personal fortunes (which accrue only from conflict).

Isn't it pretty to think so? This is the triumph of wishful rhetoric over thought. There are all sorts of other subjects where you would be all over someone who said something this insipid.

That was emotionally written. So the phrasing was a bit hackneyed and naive. Fair enough.

But the crux of it is not wrong. Israelis, and Palestinians not involved with Hamas, are good and decent people.

However, one group is actively now and has actively in the past sought to avoid civilian casualties. Israel does not want to go into Gaza. Israel wanted to focus on a peace deal with the Saudis. It does not want to kill innocent Palestinians.

Hamas, OTOH, intentionally ringed a rave and murdered Israeli civilians, brutally. They did so with glee. And to what end? To get Israel to retaliate - to attack and kill Palestinians, which cannot now be entirely avoided.

And most disgustingly, Hamas will use its own people as human shields. It will fire rockets from the tops of schools and hospitals to attempt to get Israeli radar to trace back the source and obliterate those buildings.

Hamas is not only murdering Israelis, but also its own people, for one reason and one reason alone. To destroy the Saudi peace deal, which would marginalize Hamas. And where is Hamas' leadership while this takes place? Qatar. Are they in the trenches with their pathetic brainwashed soldiers, their cannon fodder? Not a chance.

So yes, in this mess, the Israelis are the good and decent people. And Hamas deserves to be cleansed from the planet. And that is not rhetoric. There should be no Hamas prisoners taken. Yes, many are dimwitted young men maleducated in jihadist nonsense. But they are poisoned, and there is no fixing these people. They are human garbage, like ISIS. The only option is to kill every last one of them. May be incredibly difficult, but that's not a reason not to try.

ETA: Try to imagine the Israelis attacking Gaza and using their own people as human shields. Could that even happen? No. It's impossible to imagine, because Israelis have western values. They value their countrymen. The values of whatever "culture" creates a thing like Hamas are clearly defective in some fundamental regards.

You often accuse me of equating the Right here with the Left. Whataboutism. Well, I admit, and will once more do so here - the Right here is far more demented than the Left. The delta between the two is significant. And using your critical analysis to assess the validity of the argument that Israel and Hamas are on anything even approaching equal footing - which a ton of people in this country (not infrequently moronic college students) are doing - the mere suggestion of equivalence fails miserably. The delta between what Hamas is, and what it did, and Israel is canyon sized.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

The aggregation works here because it's all (ostensibly, or as justification) about the Palestinians. Every war was waged in significant part if not entirely to liberate those people (whom no other Arab country is willing to accept, including currently, Egypt). At issue here is not whether some Arab nations have reached peace with Israel - it's whether historically Israel has tried time and time again to give the Palestinians a solution, and to live in peace, only to be attacked or had peace efforts scuttled at the last minute because of bad faith actors such as Arafat, who were more interested in keeping their power and personal fortunes (which accrue only from conflict).

If you really think that Israel has tried time and time again to give the Palestinians a solution, and to live in peace, I have a bridge in the Negev to sell you. Among (many) other things, the Netanyahu governed has strengthened Hamas to undermine the Palestinian Authority. No one should pretend that the Palestinians have been blameless, but that does not absolve Israel. It has suited Israeli governments for Gaza to be a Hamas-controlled powder keg.

Israelis, and Palestinians not involved with Hamas, are good and decent people.

However, one group is actively now and has actively in the past sought to avoid civilian casualties. Israel does not want to go into Gaza. Israel wanted to focus on a peace deal with the Saudis. It does not want to kill innocent Palestinians.

Your language is Orwellian in the worst way. Israel is going into Gaza and killing innocent Palestinians because it is choosing too. If you back it, own it. Don't put frosting on a shit sandwich and pretend it's cake.

Hamas, OTOH, intentionally ringed a rave and murdered Israeli civilians, brutally. They did so with glee. And to what end? To get Israel to retaliate - to attack and kill Palestinians, which cannot now be entirely avoided.

And most disgustingly, Hamas will use its own people as human shields. It will fire rockets from the tops of schools and hospitals to attempt to get Israeli radar to trace back the source and obliterate those buildings.

Hamas is not only murdering Israelis, but also its own people, for one reason and one reason alone. To destroy the Saudi peace deal, which would marginalize Hamas. And where is Hamas' leadership while this takes place? Qatar. Are they in the trenches with their pathetic brainwashed soldiers, their cannon fodder? Not a chance.

So yes, in this mess, the Israelis are the good and decent people. And Hamas deserves to be cleansed from the planet. And that is not rhetoric. There should be no Hamas prisoners taken. Yes, many are dimwitted young men maleducated in jihadist nonsense. But they are poisoned, and there is no fixing these people. They are human garbage, like ISIS. The only option is to kill every last one of them. May be incredibly difficult, but that's not a reason not to try.

Just listen to yourself. On other subjects and at other times, you would mock this kind of self-righteous, fawning BS.

ETA: Try to imagine the Israelis attacking Gaza and using their own people as human shields. Could that even happen? No. It's impossible to imagine, because Israelis have western values. They value their countrymen. The values of whatever "culture" creates a thing like Hamas are clearly defective in some fundamental regards.

You're verging toward some very ugly thoughts here. I don't really want to go there with you.

Insurgencies often hide in civilian populations, because they have to. This has been true on every continent, across a wide range of cultures. Hamas is not the first movement to decide that the end justifies the means, and it won't be the last. (Implicit in what you say above is that "western values" mean valuing your countrymen, but not other people, which is not exactly what the Enlightenment was all about, but helps explain how, for example, a western country like the United States dropped so many bombs on Laos and Cambodia, two countries with which it wasn't even at war.)

The moral clarity you now possess about the inhumanity of Hamas would be more impressive if you used to, say, ask yourself why it has been Israeli policy to build up Hamas to weaken the Palestinian Authority. In Israeli, the Netanyahu government is now wildly unpopular, because Israelis understand that it has made choices that are at least partly to blame for where we are now.

You often accuse me of equating the Right here with the Left. Whataboutism. Well, I admit, and will once more do so here - the Right here is far more demented than the Left. The delta between the two is significant. And using your critical analysis to assess the validity of the argument that Israel and Hamas are on anything even approaching equal footing - which a ton of people in this country (not infrequently moronic college students) are doing - the mere suggestion of equivalence fails miserably. The delta between what Hamas is, and what it did, and Israel is canyon sized.

I don't think there's an "equivalence" between Israel and Hamas, so I haven't suggested it.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

If you really think that Israel has tried time and time again to give the Palestinians a solution, and to live in peace, I have a bridge in the Negev to sell you. Among (many) other things, the Netanyahu governed has strengthened Hamas to undermine the Palestinian Authority. No one should pretend that the Palestinians have been blameless, but that does not absolve Israel. It has suited Israeli governments for Gaza to be a Hamas-controlled powder keg.

Where do you get your clarity about Israel and its motives? The one time you’ve spoken about what was happening in Israel where I knew the truth you were dead wrong. Why should I listen to you now?

[Icky Thump]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Where do you get your clarity about Israel and its motives? The one time you’ve spoken about what was happening in Israel where I knew the truth you were dead wrong. Why should I listen to you now?

People in Gaza: "But we'll be homeless if we leave."
People in Israel: "Welcome to our lives since the beginning of time."

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Where do you get your clarity about Israel and its motives? The one time you’ve spoken about what was happening in Israel where I knew the truth you were dead wrong. Why should I listen to you now?

What time was that? I think you were dead wrong.

I love it when you ask me questions that could easily be answered with Google. Three seconds on Google, and you can find this opinion piece in Haaretz:

Opinion | Why Did Netanyahu Want to Strengthen Hamas?

There’s no doubt that in the immediate and short term, the reasons behind the disgraceful mishap of inconceivable scope that led to the Hamas army’s unhindered takeover of more than 20 Israeli communities near the Gaza border that dark Simchat Torah day involve an embarrassing military and intelligence failure.

Of course, they also involve the criminal neglect of the affairs of state by an indicted prime minister who is feverishly preoccupied with finding ways to escape trial. And the price is the destruction of the existential foundations of Israeli society and of the country.

But the deep roots of the feasibility of the murderous assault by the Islamist nationalist phalangists from the prison that is Gaza on Israeli citizens should actually be sought in an earlier period of Benjamin Netanyahu’s time in office as prime minister – prior to his criminal trial and his alliance with nationalist Kahanists and the judicial coup, back when he was considered “level-headed” and “rational” and “responsible.”

The purpose of the doctrine was to perpetuate the rift between Hamas in Gaza and the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. That would preserve the diplomatic paralysis and forever remove the “danger” of negotiations with the Palestinians over the partition of Israel into two states – on the argument that the Palestinian Authority doesn’t represent all the Palestinians.

That flawed strategy turned Hamas from a minor terrorist organization into an efficient, lethal army with highly trained, dehumanized stormtroopers, bloodthirsty killers who mercilessly slaughtered innocent Israeli civilians including women, children and the elderly.

This is solidlydocumented. Between 2012 and 2018, Netanyahu gave Qatar approval to transfer a cumulative sum of about a billion dollars to Gaza, at least half of which reached Hamas, including its military wing. According to the Jerusalem Post, in a private meeting with members of his Likud party on March 11, 2019, Netanyahu explained the reckless step as follows: The money transfer is part of the strategy to divide the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. Anyone who opposes the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support the transfer of the money from Qatar to Hamas. In that way, we will foil the establishment of a Palestinian state (as reported in former cabinet member Haim Ramon’s Hebrew-language book “Neged Haruach”, p. 417).

In an interview with the Ynet news website on May 5, 2019, Netanyahu associate Gershon Hacohen, a major general in reserves, said, “We need to tell the truth. Netanyahu’s strategy is to prevent the option of two states, so he is turning Hamas into his closest partner. Openly Hamas is an enemy. Covertly, it’s an ally.”

In a tweet on May 20, 2019, Channel 13 quoted Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak saying: “Netanyahu isn’t interested in the two-state solution. Rather, he wants to separate Gaza from the West Bank, as he told me at the end of 2010.” Mubarak said that during an interview with the Kuwaiti daily Al-Anba.

It’s worth dwelling on the horrifying significance of these remarks. An Israeli prime minister himself knowingly and calculatingly cultivated one of Israel’s most bitter and fanatic foes, an enemy whose declared aim is to destroy the country. And he did it to prevent the horror scenario from his standpoint of a return to Israeli-Palestinian negotiations. Netanyahu recklessly gambled on the lives of Israelis, and in fact, last Shabbat, more than 1,000 of them paid the price of that foolish gamble with their lives.

“This government has blood, rivers of blood, on its hands,” Iris Leal justifiably wrote in Haaretz this week, (Haaretz, Oct. 8). But one should acknowledge and clearly and explicitly state that, on the Israeli side, the person bearing the fundamental responsibility for the killing of more than a thousand Israelis by Hamas is Benjamin Netanyahu – its covert ally, as Maj. Gen. Cohen put it, but also an effective and essential one for the Palestinian religious nationalist terrorist organization, at least between 2012 and 2019.

Thanks to the funneling of millions of Qatari dollars to Gaza, with Netanyuhu’s repeated approval as part of a deliberate and malicious policy aimed at nothing other than burying the two-state solution, Hamas acquired inordinate military capabilities within a relatively short time. And that resulted in the current situation, which as I write, has taken the lives of about 1,000 Israelis.

With the end of the hostilities, when it comes, one may hope that a state commission of inquiry to investigate the events surrounding the Simchat Torah massacre – an unprecedented slaughter of Jews in their own country – would be convened. One of the main issues that the commission should investigate is Netanyahu’s long-term policy of strengthening Hamas.

Is every word in the above right? Dunno. Have I seen the basic gist many, many times? Absolutely yes. You haven't?

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

And Israel is using that agency to act appropriately.

Are the water and electricity still shut off?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Let’s kill the “look at another cause” argument right here. Because it is garbage.

Netanyahu is at fault. Significant fault. He did strengthen Hamas as part of a cynical strategy to avoid a two state solution. Totally true from what I’ve read.

And he should be held responsible for doing that. And will be.

But that is a different thing from what Hamas did, and never let anyone conflate them. His crime is setting the stage for violence. Hamas then engaged in violence.

Making the argument that Netanyahu is responsible is a dodge. It is meant to detract from what Hamas did. Hamas had agency. It could’ve bombed. It could’ve held territory or even taken hostages and traded them for concessions. Instead, it massacred civilians.

Netanyahu owns his sin of setting the stage. But to attempt to change the subject and focus on him with the silly suggestion he’s somehow culpable for Hamas’ acts is deflection too moronic for serious consideration. It’s also the dumbest victim shaming. “You knew Cletus packed and was a mean drunk and bought him whiskey because you wanted to hit on his cute sister who was also at the bar! You deserve him shooting you!”

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Let’s kill the “look at another cause” argument right here. Because it is garbage.

Netanyahu is at fault. Significant fault. He did strengthen Hamas as part of a cynical strategy to avoid a two state solution. Totally true from what I’ve read.

And he should be held responsible for doing that. And will be.

But that is a different thing from what Hamas did, and never let anyone conflate them. His crime is setting the stage for violence. Hamas then engaged in violence.

Making the argument that Netanyahu is responsible is a dodge. It is meant to detract from what Hamas did. Hamas had agency. It could’ve bombed. It could’ve held territory or even taken hostages and traded them for concessions. Instead, it massacred civilians.

Netanyahu owns his sin of setting the stage. But to attempt to change the subject and focus on him with the silly suggestion he’s somehow culpable for Hamas’ acts is deflection too moronic for serious consideration. It’s also the dumbest victim shaming. “You knew Cletus packed and was a mean drunk and bought him whiskey because you wanted to hit on his cute sister who was also at the bar! You deserve him shooting you!”

No one here has said that Netanyahu is culpable for Hamas's acts. If you want to engage with stupid things that no one reasonable is saying, that's what Twitter is for. If you want to engage with other people here, read what they are actually saying and respond to that.