A Forum for Grinches and Ho-Ho-Hoes - Page 150

bilmore · 02-01-2005, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
They don't live in a "democracy" yet, unless you're taking extreme liberties with that word. Maybe it will all work out in the end, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.

They just voted for their leaders. I think they now live in a democracy. If the system gets highjacked, we'll talk about it again.

Quote:

Oddly enough, you don't see many other Arabs clamoring for their country to look more like Iraq. Which suggests that if this was the first step, the journey may be a thousand miles long, and it may be Maoists (or their functional equivalent) who end up telling the story.

The Syrian society has, apparently, been full of comment in the last few weeks. Iran is still on the verge of clamoring. I think SA is going to have to start moving this way fairly quickly. There's a tremendous amount of inertia out there. This was, as you say, step one. But it WAS step one. That counts for a lot.

Shape Shifter · 02-01-2005, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
They just voted for their leaders.

Look, it's easy to be cynical about this. You gotta ask who's really running the show, and who they are running it for, when the Iraqi government website is written completely in English.

http://www.iraqigovernment.org/#

Hank Chinaski · 02-01-2005, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Look, it's easy to be cynical about this. You gotta ask who's really running the show, and who they are running it for, when the Iraqi government website is written completely in English.

http://www.iraqigovernment.org/#

http://www.iraqigovernment.org/index_kr.htm

bilmore · 02-01-2005, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
If we're to start judging our policy initiatives according to their basic morality, we're going to need a whole new set of political metrics -- and it would be helpful to agree on a common morality.

You mean, like, we should hold an election on the question?

The Larry Davis Experience · 02-01-2005, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
You mean, like, we should hold an election on the question?

[cue Bilmore's Owensesque end zone celebration dance]

Shape Shifter · 02-01-2005, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
http://www.iraqigovernment.org/index_kr.htm

Ha. Like any of them have internet access anyway. Obviously admin propaganda.

bilmore · 02-01-2005, 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Larry Davis Experience
[cue Bilmore's Owensesque end zone celebration dance]

Usually I know what you're talking about.

Today - not so much.

(ETA - I should add for clarity - Who's Owens?)

Replaced_Texan · 02-01-2005, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
Usually I know what you're talking about.

Today - not so much.

(ETA - I should add for clarity - Who's Owens?)

Hint: read the FB discussion that I just started.

Secret_Agent_Man · 02-01-2005, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
You mean, like, we should hold an election on the question?

Sure, that should settle it. Morality by majority vote.

And when you win the elections, which is all that really matters, you can give everyone medals and never even think about the bad stuff. That's because the _election_ is the "accountability moment" that determines both whether you _should_ have done what you did and whether it was well-executed.

Breath-taking arrogance.

S_A_M

Tyrone Slothrop · 02-01-2005, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
They just voted for their leaders. I think they now live in a democracy. If the system gets highjacked, we'll talk about it again.

I understand why the Bush Administration publicly sets the bar this low. What I don't understand is why so many conservatives profess to agree. And what scares me is the notion that the Bushies really think this.

Quote:

The Syrian society has, apparently, been full of comment in the last few weeks. Iran is still on the verge of clamoring. I think SA is going to have to start moving this way fairly quickly. There's a tremendous amount of inertia out there. This was, as you say, step one. But it WAS step one. That counts for a lot.

I gather that you spend a large portion of your life talking to someone who thinks that Arabs aren't interested in democracy -- couldn't care less about it. Because then you come here, and say this stuff as if it's relevant to something, anything that anyone is saying here.

The Larry Davis Experience · 02-01-2005, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
Usually I know what you're talking about.

Today - not so much.

(ETA - I should add for clarity - Who's Owens?)

If you didn't get the "end zone celebration" part, I don't think the Owens part will give it away. Consider it an effort at being funny that failed more grandly than my usual efforts fail.

fwiw, as usual I'm with SAM. Except that I don't see it as arrogance so much. More like a need for reassurance.

bilmore · 02-01-2005, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Breath-taking arrogance.

You suggested that we come to some definition of "common morality". I suggested one method of, at least on a gross level, measuring where those mores lie. You suggested nothing. And, I'm the one that's arrogant?

Look, if you want a determination, but you can't offer an approach, and you think that any sugestion of an approach is arrogant, you don't leave us with much room to progress on your path. How would YOU measure, define, or arrive at a common morality?

Say_hello_for_me · 02-01-2005, 05:50 PM

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...l=chi-news-hed

This is the greatest practical joke of all time. Joker gets a military doll sold at U.S. bases in Kuwait. Puts a gun to its head, takes a picture and broadcasts it as a captured yankee on an Islamist website. Newspapers pick up the story. Hilarity ensues.

Hank Chinaski · 02-01-2005, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I understand why the Bush Administration publicly sets the bar this low.

when is Iraq "fixed?" I say when it is handling it's own security and we can pull out. how does it get there? it's people join the police and nat'l guard. The bigger bombings and most gruesome kidnapping/murders are of recruits for these. What does that tell you Ty? THERE ARE LOTS OF RECRUITS- and they are targetted- AND STILL MORE JOIN. The people want to get there.

now the people have had a chance to pick what the government is. how can that not make more want to join the security and also narc out the insurgents?

Did you know the South Vietnamese Army was almost all drafted?

bilmore · 02-01-2005, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I understand why the Bush Administration publicly sets the bar this low. What I don't understand is why so many conservatives profess to agree. And what scares me is the notion that the Bushies really think this.

I'm baffled. They voted. Presumably, the winning candidates will be seated, absent fraud. Isn't that democracy? I don't think I called it peace, did I?

Quote:

I gather that you spend a large portion of your life talking to someone who thinks that Arabs aren't interested in democracy -- couldn't care less about it. Because then you come here, and say this stuff as if it's relevant to something, anything that anyone is saying here.

This must be my afternoon for bafflement. How this relates to what I said escapes me. You said, the Arab world doesn't appear to be clamoring for democracy. (Or were you just making a joke with the "look like Iraq" thingie?) I said, here are a few things going on in the ergion which make it appear that people are starting to clamor that way. From this, you get . . . that?