Keeping it civil instead of returning to our dark ways

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Saw some commentators last night including two old Clinton advisors. The Clinton guy's take was that Rove early on realized this would be a "get out the base" election, whereas Kerry's people kept switching between "get out the base" and getting swing votes- "killing geese."

He didn't "realize" it. It was Rove's strategy. And a lot of people thought it wouldn't work. Kerry's strategy worked well too -- he got his base out, and did very well with swing voters. (He only lost 51-48, and by 150,000 (or whatever) in Ohio. If not for the freakish result last time, we'd be thinking about this as one of the closest elections in recent history.) But swing voters don't vote in the same numbers as either side's base. Rove is clearly very good at what he does, and what he does is to create a polarized, contentious environment in which cultural issues motivated conservatives to go to the polls.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by Aloha Mr. Learned Hand
I would think not calling them morons or bigots and showing the same tolerance of them that you would like them to show to others would be a start.

Good. Now go from there. Because that's where we were before the election.

TM

[Aloha Mr. Learned Hand]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
OK. Please name an American new organization that is, in your view, closer to being a "straight down the middle professional news organization" than is CNN.

S_A_M

P.S. If you name anything owned by Rupert Murdoch, or affiliated with the Unification Church, you will have forfeited all respect.

If you mean the CNN that, if this blogger is to be believed, had pictures of Bush on their website named Asshole.jpg and Moron.jpg, then there's probably a lot of them.

Link

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
I think you're acting like an ass by trying to imply that anyone here has said that the left doesn't have bigots. Of course that's not the case. The right doesn't have a monopoly on stupidity. But the left doesn't use bigotry to rally their base.

TM

Counterpoint: affirmative action

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
Great. I'll be happy to listen to suggestions. But it seems like guns, abortion and anti-gay are covered. What kind of cutting-edge issue can top those? How about a bill to round up every single arab in the country and put them in...er...nevermind.

TM

"Wedge" doesn't have to be synonymous with "conservative." The GOP has some inherent weaknesses, as illustrated by the fact that all of the conservatives around here are fundamentally alienated from most of the culture warriors' agenda.

eta:

Subsequently posted by sgtclub

Counterpoint: affirmative action

This ought to be fun.

[SlaveNoMore]

Say_hello_for_me
Framing issues, like framing civil unions as:
1.) an equal rights issue;
2.) noting that marriage is not just a set of rights, but also a set of responsibilities that some gay couples are willing to bear; and
3.) not a question that should be determined by any particular religious belief.

Strangely though, I'm only seeing that once or twice in the last 48 hours, and very few times in the preceding months.

And the marketplace has demonstrated that people are very receptive to this. In the last decade, look at how many more companies are now offering domestic partnership benefits.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
"Wedge" doesn't have to be synonymous with "conservative." The GOP has some inherent weaknesses, as illustrated by the fact that all of the conservatives around here are fundamentally alienated from most of the culture warriors' agenda.

Although this is true, I am probably equally allienated from the left's culture warriors agenda.

[dtb]

Originally posted by Pretty Little Flower
This sounds even more like the positions of the New Yorkers quoted in that article than your earlier Sebastian paraphrase. Another excerpt:

_______________

Dr. Joseph acknowledged that such attitudes could feed into the perception that New Yorkers are cultural elitists, but he didn't apologize for it.

"People who are more competitive and proficient at what they do tend to gravitate toward cities," he said.

________________

Look, I don't know what other NY'ers feel (well, other than a few friends and I suppose the dude quoted in this article), but it's not that people think Rs are too stupid to know what's good for them (the imbecilic characterization that DS keeps trying to foist upon us); it's that the RR (religious right -- not sure if that's a "common" acronym, or one I've been using on PM) is purposefully pushing an agenda that is based upon their religious beliefs. lt's not that I'm just disappointed "my guy" didn't win -- I am disheartened that "values" are being forced down the throats of people who don't hold them.

I'm sure someone with the inclination could go out and find some incendiary comments by the other side too, so finding a quote isn't dispositive.

I'm not suggesting that the woman from Alabama I heard on the radio proclaiming that the idea of separation of church and state didn't exist because she didn't believe in it is any more "typical" of all Alabamans than the above quotes are representative of all NY'ers views.

No common ground.

[SlaveNoMore]

Replaced_Texan
I always wondered why no one was pointing out that the GOP was against assisted reproduction.

I didn't think they were.

But yes, the whole in-vitro process flies very much in the face of the natural creation process.

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
"Wedge" doesn't have to be synonymous with "conservative." The GOP has some inherent weaknesses, as illustrated by the fact that all of the conservatives around here are fundamentally alienated from most of the culture warriors' agenda.

Concur greatly.

This ought to be fun.

Dissent even more.

[cheval de frise]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
I think you're acting like an ass by trying to imply that anyone here has said that the left doesn't have bigots. Of course that's not the case. The right doesn't have a monopoly on stupidity. But the left doesn't use bigotry to rally their base.TM

I think you're sticking your head in the sand by re-defining my question to avoid the facts. One of the Democrats' major, public themes was hatred for Bush. Prominent supporters repeatedly mocked his (and by extension, his supporters') general stupidity, incompetence and backwardness. Michael Moore did it. Moveon.org did it. George Soros did it. Countless PAC's, advocacy groups and door-to-door volunteers did it. All this accomplished was to help energize the people who felt differently to go to the polls. And there are a lot of them, as we found out.

(Parenthetically, the box office take of "The Passion of the Christ" roughly tripled that of "Fahrenheit 911." Food for thought.)

Being a "bigot" isn't limited to race, ethnicity, sexual orientation, or any other immutable characteristic. A "bigot" is a person "obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices." (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th edition.) Under this definition, most of the more-strident posters here are bigots. And this bigotry was definitely used to rally the Democrats' base. Don't pretend otherwise - you're smart, and I know you're not naive.

As others have already said, there is a way to explain things to people to get them to see issues your way. Couch civil unions/gay marriage as a matter of equal rights, and use touching anecdotes (the sick partner in the hospital, etc.) to humanize the people and issues involved. Etc., etc., etc. It isn't going to be easy, and it's frustrating that people don't just "see the light" on their own. But if you (not you personally) want to achieve a result, go about it the right way. Solely standing your ground on moral absolutist grounds isn't gonna get it done. The other side is equally absolutist, and more of them tend to go the polls.

Everyone should get off their goddamned high horse, be pragmatic, and use their brains. People are not inherently evil. Some of them are just harder to bring out of their own little bunker (on 80th and Park in Manhattan, or in Cincinnati, Ohio), than others.

Rant over. I actually have work to do.

CDF

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Counterpoint: affirmative action

I'm not going to get into an affirmative action thing with you because it's a pointless argument to have with someone who would bring it up in this context. But I'm going to assume you understand that affirmative action is a remedial program and its only relation to bigotry is in its attempt to correct the effects of it.

But this is my last post on that topic.

TM

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
"Wedge" doesn't have to be synonymous with "conservative." The GOP has some inherent weaknesses, as illustrated by the fact that all of the conservatives around here are fundamentally alienated from most of the culture warriors' agenda.

Well, in 2000 if Gore had come out strong for hand gun control, instead of promising not to take anyone's guns away, I might have voted for him. But I think you'd lose more of your base with that stance.

With this campaign, Kerry was shooting a shotgun and Bush a rifle. Kerry wanted to talk about everything- Bush had fucked up everything and Kerry was going to fix it all. Other than the people who hated Bush, I didn't see anything that would motivate people to go vote.

Gay rights, or stopping them more accurately, is not the type of single issue that a Candidate cannot overcome. The column i linked on the Detroit churches and their reactions shows people who BELIEVE gays are evil can still be convinced to vote Democrat. You just need to come up with a candidate that has a message and who delivers the message in a believable manner. But the Dems better recognize the reality and get ready with some message by 2006.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
I'm not going to get into an affirmative action thing with you because it's a pointless argument to have with someone who would bring it up in this context. But I'm going to assume you understand that affirmative action is a remedial program and its only relation to bigotry is in its attempt to correct the effects of it.

But this is my last post on that topic.

TM

I understand it was a program designed to remedy bigotry. I think it's morphed into something else. But I don't have any great desire to argue its substance either. I'm just noting that the DEMs use this as a wedge issue, and I believe many of the assumptions behind it are racist (see e.g., the fact that there is no means test).

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Although this is true, I am probably equally allienated from the left's culture warriors agenda.

I'm not exactly sure who you have in mind when you refer to the left's culture warriors, but presumably you are thinking of figures who are not particularly political. E.g., I suspect you are annoyed by speech codes at colleges and universities, but the Democratic Party has little or nothing to do with those.