Implanting Bill Gates's Micro-chips In Brains For Over 20 Years!

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

By the way, below are some selections from Likud's original platform, you'll see it uses the phrase, but in the sense of excluding Palestinians from any role in governing in the area, including through a Palestinian state. It may be they worry about Palestinians using the phrase the way they do.

a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

b. A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel. and frustrates any prospect of peace.
...

Settlement
Settlement. both urban and rural. in all parts of the Land of Israel is the focal point of the Zionist effort to redeem the country, to maintain vital security areas and serves as a reservoir of strength and inspiration for the renewal of the pioneering spirit. The Likud government will call on the younger generation in Israel and the dispersions to settle and help every group and individual in the task of inhabiting and cultivating the wasteland, while taking care not to dispossess anyone.

Original as in what year?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

Original as in what year?

1977.

But it's consistent with policy of the Likud to this day. Netanyahu has used parts of the phrase relatively recently (along with his maps that show Israel covering the full West Bank and Gaza).

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Seems like all of the angsting over a "cease-fire" is coming from concern that Israel is using excessive force in going after Hamas -- which almost everyone thinks is legitimate -- in a way that is causing unnecessary death and suffering of non-Hamas Palestinians. The problem is that a "cease-fire" sounds like a clear and concrete thing, but no one knows how to draw a line regarding excessive force, no one knows how to tell what the Israelis are actually doing, and (almost) no one trusts the Israelis to get the balance right.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

1977.

But it's consistent with policy of the Likud to this day. Netanyahu has used parts of the phrase relatively recently (along with his maps that show Israel covering the full West Bank and Gaza).

I was going to write a long response but then deleted it. There is no point. And I do like you and Ty, and I won’t convince you how wrong you are, and even if I did it wouldn’t matter off this page.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Seems like all of the angsting over a "cease-fire" is coming from concern that Israel is using excessive force in going after Hamas -- which almost everyone thinks is legitimate -- in a way that is causing unnecessary death and suffering of non-Hamas Palestinians. The problem is that a "cease-fire" sounds like a clear and concrete thing, but no one knows how to draw a line regarding excessive force, no one knows how to tell what the Israelis are actually doing, and (almost) no one trusts the Israelis to get the balance right.

I'd go a touch farther.

It's not just excessive force in going after Hamas, I think Israel is (a) demonstrating war aims that have nothing to do with going after Hamas and (b) carrying out operations that are counterproductive in going after Hamas. There are statements from the Chairman of the US Joint Chief of Staff pretty much agreeing with (b), and there are also reports that Biden has signaled to Netanyahu that he is concerned about (a).

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

I was going to write a long response but then deleted it. There is no point. And I do like you and Ty, and I won’t convince you how wrong you are, and even if I did it wouldn’t matter off this page.

I'd actually be interested in your views. I may not agree with them, but I'd be interested. Especially if it involves any defense of Likud or Netanyahu on their River to the Sea campaign against Palestinians, because most folks I talk to, even diehard Israeli Zionists, try to distance themselves from that stuff or try to avoid addressing it all. I'd like to see a real defense of it.

Ultimately, peace will be made by people who disagree with each other talking and learning to both listen and respect each other. One of my biggest concerns is that the way this issue gets dealt with, from interaction between Biden and Netanyahu and within Congress to the way us common folk interact online, puts up barriers to that process occurring.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

I'd actually be interested in your views. I may not agree with them, but I'd be interested. Especially if it involves any defense of Likud or Netanyahu on their River to the Sea campaign against Palestinians, because most folks I talk to, even diehard Israeli Zionists, try to distance themselves from that stuff or try to avoid addressing it all. I'd like to see a real defense of it.

Ultimately, peace will be made by people who disagree with each other talking and learning to both listen and respect each other. One of my biggest concerns is that the way this issue gets dealt with, from interaction between Biden and Netanyahu and within Congress to the way us common folk interact online, puts up barriers to that process occurring.

My feelings are based upon having a Jewish wife and children. I don't know anything about the politics. My deepest thought is 1) Jews can't live near Hamas and 2) how else are you going to get them? Of course it is all bad.

Question for you though, looking at a map there is a bit of land that connects North and South Israel and separates the West Bank and Gaza. When they have tried talking is the dispute who get to be connected? That is who owns that land?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

My feelings are based upon having a Jewish wife and children. I don't know anything about the politics. My deepest thought is 1) Jews can't live near Hamas and 2) how else are you going to get them? Of course it is all bad.

Question for you though, looking at a map there is a bit of land that connects North and South Israel and separates the West Bank and Gaza. When they have tried talking is the dispute who get to be connected? That is who owns that land?

On the first question, the way you get rid of Hamas is (a) using targeted special forces and police action rather than broad military assaults against a large population; (b) not enabling them (Likud has had an explicit policy of keeping Hamas strong in Gaza so Palestinians are divided - a policy that has even involved allowing Hamas to get suitcases full of cash brought in from Israel - https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-c...n-gaza-571449; (c) cutting out Hamas' foreign support from other countries through diplomacy; and (d) getting third countries to cooperate in your special forces and police actions.

This is pretty much the gameplan that defeated ISIS - while the broad military actions we did in Iran played a significant role in creating ISIS, just as this assault on Gaza is going to strengthen Hamas, because the easiest person for Hamas to recruit is a person whose innocent family was killed by an Israeli bomb. But Netanyahu has been strengthening Hamas for the last twenty years, it's kind of his go to move on Palestine.

On the second, the much discussed approach has been a walled off road between the two. In a day of remote communications and easy air travel, though, this really isn't as big an issue as some make it out to be. And almost anything is better than being stuck in the Gaza prison, where exit in any direction is virtually sealed off and where any attempt to build independent infrastructure like electric plants or cell service gets bombed.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

On the first question, the way you get rid of Hamas is (a) using targeted special forces and police action rather than broad military assaults against a large population; (b) not enabling them (Likud has had an explicit policy of keeping Hamas strong in Gaza so Palestinians are divided - a policy that has even involved allowing Hamas to get suitcases full of cash brought in from Israel - https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-c...n-gaza-571449; (c) cutting out Hamas' foreign support from other countries through diplomacy; and (d) getting third countries to cooperate in your special forces and police actions.

This is pretty much the gameplan that defeated ISIS - while the broad military actions we did in Iran played a significant role in creating ISIS, just as this assault on Gaza is going to strengthen Hamas, because the easiest person for Hamas to recruit is a person whose innocent family was killed by an Israeli bomb. But Netanyahu has been strengthening Hamas for the last twenty years, it's kind of his go to move on Palestine.

On the second, the much discussed approach has been a walled off road between the two. In a day of remote communications and easy air travel, though, this really isn't as big an issue as some make it out to be. And almost anything is better than being stuck in the Gaza prison, where exit in any direction is virtually sealed off and where any attempt to build independent infrastructure like electric plants or cell service gets bombed.

Hamas has controlled Gaza since the second Bush Administration insisted on holding elections there, which Hamas won. There haven't been real elections since. Netanyahu has been happy to let Hamas control Gaza, to divide Palestinians. If you want to end Hamas control of Gaza, someone else has to exercise control. The Palestinian Authority has conditions that Israel does not want to meet. Israel recognizes that it would be nightmarish to try to do it itself. Egypt wants no part of it, nor does anyone else. That seems like the biggest obstacle to getting rid of Hamas, which has been intentional about hiding amongst the civilians in Gaza.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Hamas has controlled Gaza since the second Bush Administration insisted on holding elections there, which Hamas won. There haven't been real elections since. Netanyahu has been happy to let Hamas control Gaza, to divide Palestinians. If you want to end Hamas control of Gaza, someone else has to exercise control. The Palestinian Authority has conditions that Israel does not want to meet. Israel recognizes that it would be nightmarish to try to do it itself. Egypt wants no part of it, nor does anyone else. That seems like the biggest obstacle to getting rid of Hamas, which has been intentional about hiding amongst the civilians in Gaza.

For a while there was the quartet trying to play a role, but Netanyahu and Hamas together undermined them.

Obvious candidate is the UN, but Likud hates them and is doing it's best to poison the environment in Israel to prevent that.

I think Likud wants to divide Gaza, take the North for Israel and leave the South in a mess for a later landgrab.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

For a while there was the quartet trying to play a role, but Netanyahu and Hamas together undermined them.

Obvious candidate is the UN, but Likud hates them and is doing it's best to poison the environment in Israel to prevent that.

I think Likud wants to divide Gaza, take the North for Israel and leave the South in a mess for a later landgrab.

I don't think Likud wants to try to be the government for the people living there.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

My feelings are based upon having a Jewish wife and children.

I have a Jewish step-mother, sister, and other family, so I get where you are coming from.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

On the first question, the way you get rid of Hamas is (a) using targeted special forces and police action rather than broad military assaults against a large population; (b) not enabling them (Likud has had an explicit policy of keeping Hamas strong in Gaza so Palestinians are divided - a policy that has even involved allowing Hamas to get suitcases full of cash brought in from Israel - https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-c...n-gaza-571449; (c) cutting out Hamas' foreign support from other countries through diplomacy; and (d) getting third countries to cooperate in your special forces and police actions.

This is pretty much the gameplan that defeated ISIS - while the broad military actions we did in Iran played a significant role in creating ISIS, just as this assault on Gaza is going to strengthen Hamas, because the easiest person for Hamas to recruit is a person whose innocent family was killed by an Israeli bomb. But Netanyahu has been strengthening Hamas for the last twenty years, it's kind of his go to move on Palestine.

On the second, the much discussed approach has been a walled off road between the two. In a day of remote communications and easy air travel, though, this really isn't as big an issue as some make it out to be. And almost anything is better than being stuck in the Gaza prison, where exit in any direction is virtually sealed off and where any attempt to build independent infrastructure like electric plants or cell service gets bombed.

So when I Google how many Hamas fighters are in Gaza it looks like 20,000. When I search how many Isis fighters were killed it is about 1000. So let’s say there were 2000 total. And they weren’t embedded in hospitals etc.

And Israel and the U.S. aren’t using our soldiers to be dumped off a DDay boat and charge at machine guns anymore, so I’m not sure your approach really is reality. But who knows.

[Oliver_Wendell_Ramone]

RIP Shane MacGowan. Fairytale of New York will hit a bit harder this year.

[LessinSF]

Originally Posted by Oliver_Wendell_Ramone

RIP Shane MacGowan. Fairytale of New York will hit a bit harder this year.

The last time I saw him, he had to be helped on and off the stage. Frankly, I'm surprised he made to 65.