All Hank, all the time.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by sgtclub
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060801/D8J7MKJ01.html

Hallelujah!

Finally, as we approach the day He was plucked from the sea by the saintly Donato, the fisherman, appropriately on Thanksgiving Day 1999, with his mamma, may she rest in peace, lashing Him to an raggedy tire innertube to sail to freedom in the US of A, we are coming up on the day of (re)liberation for the child political prisoner Elian.

For those of us who value freedom and the natural rights of all humans and who fought so hard to preserve the freedom for Elian that his madre gave her life for, this will be a joyous day. Thank G-d.

But, we should never forget or forgive the crimes against humanity, G-d and freedom of Shake n Bake Reno, Billybud Clinton and Castro. The subjugation of this innocent child is the tragedy of our generation (other than the Schiavo murder). It is so sad.

Of course, on the positve tip, the betrayal of liberty is and will remain one of the lasting legacies of Bill Clinton's criminal hijacking of the office of the CinC.

Victory! Amen!

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Penske_Account

A Prayer for Elian

Oops, sorry. :blush:

[Tyrone Slothrop]

In an effort to repair what Penske broke, a few thoughts from John Quiggin:

• The terrible war in Lebanon has been discussed from all sorts of ethical and legal perspectives, but the simplest way of judging war is to look at its consequences.
  
  After weeks of bloodshed, with the vast majority of victims being ordinary people (mostly in Lebanon thanks to the use of airstrikes as a weapon of terror, but with many killed and wounded in Israel as well) whose only crime was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, it’s hard to believe that anyone could claim that any good consequences are going to come out of this for the people of either Israel or Lebanon (though of course this is precisely the claim being made not only by the belligerents but by their outside backers, from Bush on one side to the Iranians on the other). But as we’ve seen time and again, the logic of war, once started, is remorseless. However obviously wrong the initial decision to go to war, the consequences of ending it always seem almost worse, at least to those who have to admit that the death and destruction they have wrought has been pointless.
  
  And all this was not only predictable, but predicted by nearly everyone who looked at the situation objectively.
  
  Whether all this is put in terms of just war, consequentialism or some other way of thinking about things, a central problem is that the parties act as judges in their own cases, and, at times when war is brewing, are bad judges even of their own interests, let alone of the justice of their claims or the effect on others.
  
  At best, war is doing evil that good may come, and most of the time the indirect consequences are also evil. The great majority of wars, revolutions and insurgencies have done more harm than good, and in most cases, everyone involved has been worse off than if they had made peace on the basis of the status quo ante at the earliest opportunity. This is obvious as a general proposition (the fact that the same handful of exceptions is quoted over and over again only goes to sharpen the point). But everyone thinking of making war sees themselves as one of the exceptions.

eta: I'd add that there are people who stand to gain from conflict, and they often play a crucial role in spurring the fighting on. E.g., the head of Hezbollah has seen his stature increase around the Arab world, even while the war has been a disaster for Lebanon.

eatft

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
In an effort to repair what Penske broke, a few thoughts from John Quiggin:
[list]The terrible war in Lebanon has been discussed from all sorts of ethical and legal perspectives, but the simplest way of judging war is to look at its consequences.

After weeks of bloodshed, with the vast majority of victims being ordinary people (mostly in Lebanon thanks to the use of airstrikes as a weapon of terror, but with many killed and wounded in Israel as well) whose only crime was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, it’s hard to believe that anyone could claim that any good consequences are going to come out of this for the people of either Israel ....

I lose this rationale there. A lot of these people, as sad as it may be, are not at the wrong place at the wrong time. They are not innocent. Anymore than the mass of Germans who supported Hitler into office and during the 30s were innocent. The mass of citizenry in Lebanon and Syria and a good portion of the ME, hate the Jews, Hate Israel and support its destruction, in word or deed. they let their countries be used as harbors for terrorists and launching pads for the military apparatus that is intended to bring israel's destruction. they give aid and support to the terrorists. allow them to intermingle in their population so that they can have the "innocent citizen" shields.

assumption of the risk, you reap what you sow etc.

If Israel has the nuts to prosecute this thing as need be, it will be the winner and more secure.

Go Israel!

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
In an effort to repair what Penske broke, .[/list]

ps: I didn't break it, the liberals are all preparing to be mourning as one of the last failed commie revolutionaries of the last century gets ready to bite it. A sad time for the leftist ideal.

My condolences.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
I lose this rationale there. A lot of these people, as sad as it may be, are not at the wrong place at the wrong time. They are not innocent.

That's repellent. There's an argument to be made about whether the killing of innocents is a troubling but necessary requirement to root out militants attempting to hide in civilian populations.

Trying to rationalize it by saying that the populace deserved it is simply fucked.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
I lose this rationale there. A lot of these people, as sad as it may be, are not at the wrong place at the wrong time. They are not innocent. Anymore than the mass of Germans who supported Hitler into office and during the 30s were innocent. The mass of citizenry in Lebanon and Syria and a good portion of the ME, hate the Jews, Hate Israel and support its destruction, in word or deed. they let their countries be used as harbors for terrorists and launching pads for the military apparatus that is intended to bring israel's destruction. they give aid and support to the terrorists. allow them to intermingle in their population so that they can have the "innocent citizen" shields.

assumption of the risk, you reap what you sow etc.

If Israel has the nuts to prosecute this thing as need be, it will be the winner and more secure.

Go Israel!

Do you really believe all that or are you stirring things up for the hell of it?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Gattigap
That's repellent. There's an argument to be made about whether the killing of innocents is a troubling but necessary requirement to root out militants attempting to hide in civilian populations.

Trying to rationalize it by saying that the populace deserved it is simply fucked.

In some ways I don't care if its repellent. The institutional anti-semitism in the ME is more repellent and the measure approach of dealing wiht it doesn't work. So I am about black and white solutions. If we are going to continue to invest billions of dollars supporting Israel and to attempt to realize the benefit of 30 years of foreign policy which has been predicated on the continued existence of Israel being of immense strategic importance, then we have to stop pretending that measured approaches and co-existence is going to work anytime before Israel completely puts the smack down. I don't see it as any different than what we did in Germany or Japan at the end of WWII to fully win the war and I don't second guess what we did there.

Otherwise let's pull up stakes, invest the billions in education in the US and let Iran do what it will with Greater Palestine.

And I am not saying they all deserve to die but there has to be a realization that there are consequences to one's behaviors and actions and in the present situation in the ME, civilian populations, while not active combatants, both actively and passively do a lot to facilitate the terrorists ability to function. You can't pretend on the one hand that you are part of the effourt and support and then claim an exemption from responsibility when you get caught up in the repercussions.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Do you really believe all that or are you stirring things up for the hell of it?

Confidential to Ty: a little of both.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
So I am about black and white solutions.

This much is clear.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
The institutional anti-semitism in the ME is more repellent and the measure approach of dealing wiht it doesn't work.

In other words, Israelis should fight anti-Semitism by using overwhelming military power to kill a lot of non-combatants. That should work.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
In an effort to repair what Penske broke, a few thoughts from John Quiggin:

• The terrible war in Lebanon has been discussed from all sorts of ethical and legal perspectives, but the simplest way of judging war is to look at its consequences.
  
  After weeks of bloodshed, with the vast majority of victims being ordinary people (mostly in Lebanon thanks to the use of airstrikes as a weapon of terror, but with many killed and wounded in Israel as well) whose only crime was to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, it’s hard to believe that anyone could claim that any good consequences are going to come out of this for the people of either Israel or Lebanon (though of course this is precisely the claim being made not only by the belligerents but by their outside backers, from Bush on one side to the Iranians on the other). But as we’ve seen time and again, the logic of war, once started, is remorseless. However obviously wrong the initial decision to go to war, the consequences of ending it always seem almost worse, at least to those who have to admit that the death and destruction they have wrought has been pointless.
  
  And all this was not only predictable, but predicted by nearly everyone who looked at the situation objectively.
  
  Whether all this is put in terms of just war, consequentialism or some other way of thinking about things, a central problem is that the parties act as judges in their own cases, and, at times when war is brewing, are bad judges even of their own interests, let alone of the justice of their claims or the effect on others.
  
  At best, war is doing evil that good may come, and most of the time the indirect consequences are also evil. The great majority of wars, revolutions and insurgencies have done more harm than good, and in most cases, everyone involved has been worse off than if they had made peace on the basis of the status quo ante at the earliest opportunity. This is obvious as a general proposition (the fact that the same handful of exceptions is quoted over and over again only goes to sharpen the point). But everyone thinking of making war sees themselves as one of the exceptions.

eta: I'd add that there are people who stand to gain from conflict, and they often play a crucial role in spurring the fighting on. E.g., the head of Hezbollah has seen his stature increase around the Arab world, even while the war has been a disaster for Lebanon.

eatft

was this guy on Clinton's NSA staff?

he misses the point that w/o the action the Israeli citizens would still be getting killed, maybe in smaller numbers, but just as certainly getting killed day by day.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
In other words, Israelis should fight anti-Semitism by using overwhelming military power to kill a lot of non-combatants. That should work.

yes - better that than another Aushuwitz (sp)

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Gattigap
That's repellent. There's an argument to be made about whether the killing of innocents is a troubling but necessary requirement to root out militants attempting to hide in civilian populations.

Trying to rationalize it by saying that the populace deserved it is simply fucked.

2.


As for the original post, I think it's too early to tell what the end result will be here. Depends on how far and how successful Israel is, and how the situation is ultimately resolved. Hezbollah's leader already had ample stature; a two-week gain of some more is not particularly important in the scheme of things.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
he misses the point that w/o the action the Israeli citizens would still be getting killed, maybe in smaller numbers, but just as certainly getting killed day by day.

I don't think he does, but if the best you can do by way of response is to knock down straw men, you go right ahead.