A sad, constant bid for attention

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
Thirteen year-old urban black kids listen to much of the same crap as 13 year old suburban white kids, yes. That is unavoidable simply because you cannot escape mainstream music and people in general are programmed to like it.

But what is on the radio is what 13 year old surburban white kids think is authentically urban and black. Thirteen year old urban black kids listen to a lot of local shit, underground mix tapes (unauthorized mixes of established (or not) beats* with established artists and not established artists rapping over them) and whatever their parents listen to (groups like Dead Presidents, Roots, Talib Kweli and other authentic hip hop voices that mainstream will always shun), which surburban white kids don't typically have access to. Also, 13 year old urban black kids buy mainstream hip hop in bootleg form because it's too expensive for them otherwise. So, what drives the mainstream hip hop market really is what labels can sell to a mainstream (read: surbuban, white) audience.

Jay-Z is listened to by everybody.

TM

*Jay-Z always releases his albums without the beats as well, so underground djs can show their creativity with them. And there are always like 500 versions of each of his songs that you hear on the streets in Brooklyn because people make money by creatively re-doing them and selling them for $5 a pop. But only he and a few others can do this because he knows his albums will sell even though there are sometimes better versions to be found elsewhere.

Who is Jay-Z?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
Thirteen year-old urban black kids listen to much of the same crap as 13 year old suburban white kids, yes. That is unavoidable simply because you cannot escape mainstream music and people in general are programmed to like it.

But what is on the radio is what 13 year old surburban white kids think is authentically urban and black. Thirteen year old urban black kids listen to a lot of local shit, underground mix tapes (unauthorized mixes of established (or not) beats* with established artists and not established artists rapping over them) and whatever their parents listen to (groups like Dead Presidents, Roots, Talib Kweli and other authentic hip hop voices that mainstream will always shun), which surburban white kids don't typically have access to. Also, 13 year old urban black kids buy mainstream hip hop in bootleg form because it's too expensive for them otherwise. So, what drives the mainstream hip hop market really is what labels can sell to a mainstream (read: surbuban, white) audience.

Jay-Z is listened to by everybody.

TM

*Jay-Z always releases his albums without the beats as well, so underground djs can show their creativity with them. And there are always like 500 versions of each of his songs that you hear on the streets in Brooklyn because people make money by creatively re-doing them and selling them for $5 a pop. But only he and a few others can do this because he knows his albums will sell even though there are sometimes better versions to be found elsewhere.

by "suburban" you mean from "all white suburbs?"

[spookyfish]

Despite the fact that I'm not exactly thrilled that they divided the tribes along racial lines, I got drawn into watching Survivor again this season.

Unfortunately, I didn't happen to be home when it aired last night, and due to two small monkeys who had unfettered control of the universal remote, but do not totally understand how the DVR functions, the show did not record last night -- instead, and inexplicably, the machine managed to record ER instead -- even though it is on a completely different time and network. (Does anybody even watch that show anymore?)

If someone knows what happened in last night's episode and can give me a brief syopsis by PM, I would appreciate it.

TIA.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
Thirteen year-old urban black kids listen to much of the same crap as 13 year old suburban white kids, yes. That is unavoidable simply because you cannot escape mainstream music and people in general are programmed to like it.

But what is on the radio is what 13 year old surburban white kids think is authentically urban and black. Thirteen year old urban black kids listen to a lot of local shit, underground mix tapes (unauthorized mixes of established (or not) beats* with established artists and not established artists rapping over them) and whatever their parents listen to (groups like Dead Presidents, Roots, Talib Kweli and other authentic hip hop voices that mainstream will always shun), which surburban white kids don't typically have access to. Also, 13 year old urban black kids buy mainstream hip hop in bootleg form because it's too expensive for them otherwise. So, what drives the mainstream hip hop market really is what labels can sell to a mainstream (read: surbuban, white) audience.

Jay-Z is listened to by everybody.

TM

I mostly agree with what you are saying. But as a person who loves underground hip hop, and loves to go see groups like Dead Presidents, and Talib Kweli, and the Roots, and People Under the Stairs, and the Heiroglyphics crew, and the Quannum crew, and the Def Jux crew, I have to note that the audiences for these shows are overwhelmingly young and white. Now, sure, this is Minnesota. But there are plenty of hip hop shows that are not overhwelmingly white, even here, and those are for the most part R&B or more mainstream-oriented shows.

[SlaveNoMore]

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Who is Jay-Z?

In 2028, the President of the United States.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by spookyfish
Despite the fact that I'm not exactly thrilled that they divided the tribes along racial lines, I got drawn into watching Survivor again this season.

Unfortunately, I didn't happen to be home when it aired last night, and due to two small monkeys who had unfettered control of the universal remote, but do not totally understand how the DVR functions, the show did not record last night -- instead, and inexplicably, the machine managed to record ER instead -- even though it is on a completely different time and network. (Does anybody even watch that show anymore?)

If someone knows what happened in last night's episode and can give me a brief syopsis by PM, I would appreciate it.

TIA.

someone stole the Asians tools. they are pretty sure it was the blacks.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
In 2028, the President of the United States.

Take it to Politics.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by Pretty Little Flower
I mostly agree with what you are saying. But as a person who loves underground hip hop, and loves to go see groups like Dead Presidents, and Talib Kweli, and the Roots, and People Under the Stairs, and the Heiroglyphics crew, and the Quannum crew, and the Def Jux crew, I have to note that the audiences for these shows are overwhelmingly young and white. Now, sure, this is Minnesota. But there are plenty of hip hop shows that are not overhwelmingly white, even here, and those are for the most part R&B or more mainstream-oriented shows.

I don't go to any hip hop shows, so I'm not going to argue with you on that. It may even be that way in New York. I do know that those groups tend to make their music for black people. I also know that when I go to Nostrand Ave or Flatbush that everyone knows who Dead Prez are. I don't think if I went to Eden Prarie anyone would know who they are. But maybe I'm wrong.

For a long time there have been many white people who seek out and love underground hip hop. You know where I went to school. I could talk about true hip hop with a good number of white people at my school and the ones who loved the music wanted as much as they could get and learned shit from me and exposed me to shit as well. But on the whole, most white people there could only talk about MC Hammer, if you asked them.

As for the phenomenon of white people attending underground hip hop shows in MN, I don't know what's up with that. I can guess that because there are few blacks in MN and because they are as removed from places like Brooklyn or Chicago's south side as anyone else in the state that maybe they only spend their money on Fifty Cent and Jay-Z concerts and albums. Or maybe they're into that Dirty South/crunk crap that so many non-New Yorkers love (not to say there aren't plenty of New Yorkers who love that crap too).

Also, I've noticed that white kids who truly love hip hop (and the fact that hip hop is so big now means that there are generations who have grown up on it and seek out the best of it), feel like they want to be down. And knowing what's up in the underground is a great way to prove that they can be.

I think the two main points I'm trying to make are the same, though (and I don't think we've ever disagreed on this topic). The first is that mainstream hip hop is run by big labels and big labels are selling an image of urban america to the suburban kids who actually buy the albums. The second is that the groups you mention make music that is true to hip hop and black culture. That does not mean that white people are barred from participating. But it's very different music than what most people think about when they think about what rap music is.

TM

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
I don't go to any hip hop shows, so I'm not going to argue with you on that. It may even be that way in New York. I do know that those groups tend to make their music for black people. I also know that when I go to Nostrand Ave or Flatbush that everyone knows who Dead Prez are. I don't think if I went to Eden Prarie anyone would know who they are. But maybe I'm wrong.

For a long time there have been many white people who seek out and love underground hip hop. You know where I went to school. I could talk about true hip hop with a good number of white people at my school and the ones who loved the music wanted as much as they could get and learned shit from me and exposed me to shit as well. But on the whole, most white people there could only talk about MC Hammer, if you asked them.

As for the phenomenon of white people attending underground hip hop shows in MN, I don't know what's up with that. I can guess that because there are few blacks in MN and because they are as removed from places like Brooklyn or Chicago's south side as anyone else in the state that maybe they only spend their money on Fifty Cent and Jay-Z concerts and albums. Or maybe they're into that Dirty South/crunk crap that so many non-New Yorkers love (not to say there aren't plenty of New Yorkers who love that crap too).

Also, I've noticed that white kids who truly love hip hop (and the fact that hip hop is so big now means that there are generations who have grown up on it and seek out the best of it), feel like they want to be down. And knowing what's up in the underground is a great way to prove that they can be.

I think the two main points I'm trying to make are the same, though (and I don't think we've ever disagreed on this topic). The first is that mainstream hip hop is run by big labels and big labels are selling an image of urban america to the suburban kids who actually buy the albums. The second is that the groups you mention make music that is true to hip hop and black culture. That does not mean that white people are barred from participating. But it's very different music than what most people think about when they think about what rap music is.

TM

So educate this ignorant white boy. What's the difference between rap and hip-hop. What makes one artist mainstream and another underground?

I like some stuff, but what I've got on my iPod pretty much matches what I know; it's a mixed bag of old and new stuff that I've heard elsewhere and thought "hey, that sounds pretty good."

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by taxwonk
So educate this ignorant white boy. What's the difference between rap and hip-hop. What makes one artist mainstream and another underground?

I like some stuff, but what I've got on my iPod pretty much matches what I know; it's a mixed bag of old and new stuff that I've heard elsewhere and thought "hey, that sounds pretty good."

If you've heard it, it's no longer underground.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by taxwonk
So educate this ignorant white boy. What's the difference between rap and hip-hop. What makes one artist mainstream and another underground?

I like some stuff, but what I've got on my iPod pretty much matches what I know; it's a mixed bag of old and new stuff that I've heard elsewhere and thought "hey, that sounds pretty good."

Anything after The Last Poets is just product.

Can anyone recall the name of the guy who is still alive and was alleged to be the first rapper (started in the 1950s)? It was in some magazine, and on the radio the other day.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Anything after The Last Poets is just product.

Can anyone recall the name of the guy who is still alive and was alleged to be the first rapper (started in the 1950s)? It was in some magazine, and on the radio the other day.

Elvis.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
In 2028, the President of the United States.

99 Problems would be a perfect political ad soundtrack

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Elvis.

Motherfuck him and John Wayne.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Motherfuck him and John Wayne.

John Wayne is dead.