Politics: J'accuse!

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)

On 1, bull. shit. my dad was a professor at one of the preeminent universities in the nation (or so it considers itself). The department in which he had tenure came to be dominated by those of a certain viewpoint and approach to the subject. After gaining critical mass they essentially refused to tenure anyone without similar viewpoints, further entrenching their views.

I think this happens much, much more at the preeminent universities, mainly because they get all the choice in the world as to who they hire. Pick of the litter. But the vast majority of people who go to college don't go to preeminent universities. (In fact, I saw an article today that preeminent universities are starting to have larger proportions of students from wealthy backgrounds, but that's a tangent.)

And, of course, there are preeminent universities that are known for being conservative (e.g. U of C law school as Ty said, and their econ program). If you want to learn econ from the commie perspective, you go to Harvard's econ dept. If you want to learn it from the market is always 100% right perspective, you go to Chicago. If you want to learn it without a big ideological bent, I bet a ton of lesser-known schools have a mix of people.

Also, I think there's a big divide between business programs, where many/most teachers are pretty damn conservative, and liberal arts programs. People who become lawyers tend to come from a liberal arts background, so they see the liberal stuff more. Especially on the coasts, I think.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
I'll tolerate your confusion on the issue more than clubbie's classmates and professor tolerated the accusations of racism

You guys keep blurring process and substance. I haven't heard yet that Club was shut up. I've heard that people didn't agree with him, and made this very clear. He then shut himself up, because it can be uncomfortable to be a lonely voice with an unpopular viewpoint. All of this can be expected when feelings run strong.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)

Let's ask club for the facts, though. After the outrage died down, did the professor say "well, Mr. club, that's an interesting viewpoint that it seems your classmates do not share and, perhaps, believe reflects latent racism." "Ms. PC, would you take up the cause for your fellow classmates and articulate why it reflects only racism, and not a reasoned approach to statutory interpretation?"

I very much doubt it, and, having been in a remarkably similar situation, can say that if the Prof. did, it's a rare one.

The professor didn't take sides in the issue, she essentially just let the debate play out, which is good in a way because she was objective, but bad in that she didn't condemn the cries of racism. Frankly, I think she actually agreed with me, but didn't want to say so publicly for fear of what that would lead to in her own situation.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
I have never objected to the presentation of "liberal" viewpoints. I have objected solely to the out-of-hand rejection of "conservative/traditional" viewpoints that occurs with alarming frequency at many of the leading institutions of higher learning.

And if the nuts at the conservative religious schools do it, shame on them. And that's why I would never consider sending a child to one of those places, because they try to indoctrinate as much as anyone. But I'm not so worried about third-rate institutions as I am about the Berkeleys, Stanfords, Harvards and Yales of the world.

Why are you more worried about the big name places? Because people who go to them go on to positions of power, like large law firms? And they are transforming large law firms into bastions of PC behavior? Not any I've seen. Generally law firms are full of white males.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
Suppose I call Not Me a racist. Will that shut her up? Empirically, no.

Do you not get the part about this being an anonymous conversation here?

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
So I take it you think poor people are suppressed when the government declines to fund legal services more, or places limits on what LSCs can do?

The stiffling of which we speak does not derive from the fact that universities do not provide a tenure platform to those with certain viewpoints. Rather, it comes from the process by which those tenured persons teach their classes.

Insufficient funding for LSC may make it more difficult for poor plaintiffs to get to court, but it doesn't close the courthouse doors to those that do make it there.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
The professor didn't take sides in the issue, she essentially just let the debate play out, which is good in a way because she was objective, but bad in that she didn't condemn the cries of racism. Frankly, I think she actually agreed with me, but didn't want to say so publicly for fear of what that would lead to in her own situation.

So your speech wasn't suppressed, but you had (in part) a shitty time in law school because some of your fellow students irrationally called you racist and hated you.

Square this with your approval of Ann Coulter. Oop, never mind. Let's not go there.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
You guys keep blurring process and substance. I haven't heard yet that Club was shut up. I've heard that people didn't agree with him, and made this very clear. He then shut himself up, because it can be uncomfortable to be a lonely voice with an unpopular viewpoint. All of this can be expected when feelings run strong.

I have no problem being the lonely voice with an unpopular viewpoint. I just don't like being called and being stigmatized as a racist, especially given the circumstances under which I grew up and the utter hatred I feel towards racists.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Me
Do you not get the part about this being an anonymous conversation here?

If you met me IRL you wouldn't give a rat's ass what I think.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Go out to lunch with him and it might.

Let's ask club for the facts, though. After the outrage died down, did the professor say "well, Mr. club, that's an interesting viewpoint that it seems your classmates do not share and, perhaps, believe reflects latent racism." "Ms. PC, would you take up the cause for your fellow classmates and articulate why it reflects only racism, and not a reasoned approach to statutory interpretation?"

I very much doubt it, and, having been in a remarkably similar situation, can say that if the Prof. did, it's a rare one.

(and, uh, I know the passive voice and the past tense have similar endings, but they are different. although I'll tolerate your confusion on the issue more than clubbie's classmates and professor tolerated the accusations of racism)

In a Jurisprudence class we were talking about right of privacy. I made the (pro-choice) point that its too bad the courts can't just say "women can get abortions because we can't tell them what to do with their bodies- if its not in the constitution, it should be." my point was that it seemed problematic to me that the supremes found a "clear right" in the constitution but couldn't agree where it was. my point, simply, was a clear point-they should agree.
i got yelled at, and we didn't really get to the substantive point.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Rather, it comes from the process by which those tenured persons teach their classes.

I keep waiting to hear what the problem is, but it's elusive. I think I understand, but then, like sand through an hourglass, it's gone.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I have no problem being the lonely voice with an unpopular viewpoint. I just don't like being called and being stigmatized as a racist, especially given the circumstances under which I grew up and the utter hatred I feel towards racists.

I suspect that part of the problem we all have in talking about racism is that everyone agrees that racism is bad, but not everyone agrees what it is.

eta: BRC seems to agree.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
So your speech wasn't suppressed, but you had (in part) a shitty time in law school because some of your fellow students irrationally called you racist and hated you.

Square this with your approval of Ann Coulter. Oop, never mind. Let's not go there.

There are only two ways my speech could have been surpressed: (1) if I was physically gagged and (2) if I censored myself. This is not about speech surpression for someone like me, because I'm happy to fend for myself.

No, let's go there. What is your point regarding Ann Coulter?

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
I suspect that part of the problem we all have in talking about racism is that everyone agrees that racism is bad, but not everyone agrees what it is.

Please don't tell me you buy into that bullshit relativity of ideas trend.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
If you met me IRL you wouldn't give a rat's ass what I think.

It isn't about caring what someone thinks. It is about being falsely accused of something and then penalized for this. Many whites in our society feel a collective guilt over how blacks were treated in the past. In a misguided effort to prove to themselves and the world how they aren't racists, they will blindly accept any allegations of racism. And if they have the power, they will try to penalize this person who is accused of being a racist even when there is no foundation to the allegation.