Objectively intelligent.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I am just baffled by all the people who act like the various government closures are the problem, rather than an effort to stop a disease that is killing people. It's not just political. The local news here will have stories about changes in the restrictions, and then they'll interview business owners who will complain about how the restrictions make it hard to do business. Sure, but hello? The problem is that there is a pandemic killing your customers, and if you open your bar you will make it worse. Do they simply not get it? Patrick may be happy to kill himself, but most people aren't, it turns out.

There is a disconnect on response. Here we were "one of the best states" for containing. We started to reopen- new case went up a bit. A bar in East Lansing caused a major flare up- like 150 cases from one night of kids partying. The Gov, rather than closing the responsible bar- re-closed ALL bar areas inside. Which killed lots of businesses, or will. Meanwhile the bar actually at fault has a huge outdoor seating area. I'm sure it is packed at this moment. Plus, the way the South is going, without roadblocks, ain't none of the other states blocking it. It will wash over, I'm afraid.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I am just baffled by all the people who act like the various government closures are the problem, rather than an effort to stop a disease that is killing people. It's not just political. The local news here will have stories about changes in the restrictions, and then they'll interview business owners who will complain about how the restrictions make it hard to do business. Sure, but hello? The problem is that there is a pandemic killing your customers, and if you open your bar you will make it worse. Do they simply not get it? Patrick may be happy to kill himself, but most people aren't, it turns out.

The idiotic part of all of this is that none of the speakers were planning on showing up to the convention floor. They were all going to be simulcast.

Patrick has been the loudest in bitching about shutdowns, masks, etc since the very beginning. It's not surprising that he's leading the charge now.

The favorite bitch on social media about this is that the mayor let the George Floyd protest happen (and spoke at it), with 60,000 people, but won't let the Republicans meet. They're ignoring that the protests were outside, mainly masked, and at a time when there were about 400 cases a day, not 1600+ with an, er, robust census at pretty much every hospital in the region.

I'm sure that if the Texas Republicans asked for a marching permit, someone would give it to them.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Replaced_Texan

The idiotic part of all of this is that none of the speakers were planning on showing up to the convention floor. They were all going to be simulcast.

Patrick has been the loudest in bitching about shutdowns, masks, etc since the very beginning. It's not surprising that he's leading the charge now.

The favorite bitch on social media about this is that the mayor let the George Floyd protest happen (and spoke at it), with 60,000 people, but won't let the Republicans meet. They're ignoring that the protests were outside, mainly masked, and at a time when there were about 400 cases a day, not 1600+ with an, er, robust census at pretty much every hospital in the region.

I'm sure that if the Texas Republicans asked for a marching permit, someone would give it to them.

There were a lot of people who had been in favor of shutting things down who then reversed course when the Floyd protests happened. It's not wrong for Republicans to see some hypocrisy there. On the other hand, it doesn't seem like those protests did much to spread the disease, and it's clear that indoor events are trouble. Do they not understand that people are dying or do they not care? It's a mystery.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I see a lot of people criticizing all three, and I don't understand for what, apart from the assholes who are giving VanDerWorff a hard time because they can.

All three were perfectly decent about the whole thing, but the anti-cancel culture crowd wanted a fight so they could cancel someone. Crazy stuff.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

All three were perfectly decent about the whole thing, but the anti-cancel culture crowd wanted a fight so they could cancel someone. Crazy stuff.

Wait, I thought Yglesias was supposed to be part of the anti-cancel crowd. He signed the letter.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Wait, I thought Yglesias was supposed to be part of the anti-cancel crowd. He signed the letter.

Yes, and Emily said it made her unconformable as a trans woman given all the vocally anti-trans folks on the letter, and it then it went downhill as all the anti-cancel folks tried to cancel her and started suggesting Ezra Klein was going to fire Matty Yglesias over it.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

He focuses on the right wing as the cause. He suggests that it is okay to respond to ideas with cancel culture because the right is acting in bad faith. That’s a perverse notion. When someone argues in bad faith, you reply by pointing that out, not creating a media culture in which the non-woke are deplatformed.

Holy crap, where have you been?? The current occupant of the White House is a walking demonstration that you can't call out "bad faith" successfully. The only option is to stop engaging with those acting in bad faith.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I am just baffled by all the people who act like the various government closures are the problem, rather than an effort to stop a disease that is killing people. It's not just political. The local news here will have stories about changes in the restrictions, and then they'll interview business owners who will complain about how the restrictions make it hard to do business. Sure, but hello? The problem is that there is a pandemic killing your customers, and if you open your bar you will make it worse. Do they simply not get it? Patrick may be happy to kill himself, but most people aren't, it turns out.

They think it won't kill them and don't care about anyone else therefore if we just ignored it, the people who don't matter will get it and die but everyone else will be fine.

It's a combination of racism, classism and hubris. They're right that black and brown people and those who can't work from home are bearing the brunt of it but wrong that it won't come for them eventually if we don't act together.

ETA: Or, in other words, to some degree a basic collective action problem with the very familiar (by now) problem of people just denying reality so they don't have to deal with the fact that change is required.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Adder

Holy crap, where have you been?? The current occupant of the White House is a walking demonstration that you can't call out "bad faith" successfully. The only option is to stop engaging with those acting in bad faith.

Funny story: When CNN reported that Trump was lying about something that he was lying about, Sebby said they were biased for reporting that he was lying because, hey, without some form of ESP, how could they know that he was lying when he kept repeating something that was obviously false. So in Sebby's world you also can't call out "bad faith" unless someone says "I'm acting in bad faith." Which, strangely, those acting in bad faith do not tend to do.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally Posted by Adder

They think it won't kill them and don't care about anyone else therefore if we just ignored it, the people who don't matter will get it and die but everyone else will be fine.

It's a combination of racism, classism and hubris. They're right that black and brown people and those who can't work from home are bearing the brunt of it but wrong that it won't come for them eventually if we don't act together.

ETA: Or, in other words, to some degree a basic collective action problem with the very familiar (by now) problem of people just denying reality so they don't have to deal with the fact that change is required.

Given that the elderly are at risk and that everyone tends to have elderly relatives, I would have thought more conservatives would feel at risk. Given the numbers in Florida, Texas and Arizona, maybe they'll come around in the next few months.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Funny story: When CNN reported that Trump was lying about something that he was lying about, Sebby said they were biased for reporting that he was lying because, hey, without some form of ESP, how could they know that he was lying when he kept repeating something that was obviously false. So in Sebby's world you also can't call out "bad faith" unless someone says "I'm acting in bad faith." Which, strangely, those acting in bad faith do not tend to do.

It's a conundrum. Nothing can be done.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?

Aren't you catholic?

I’ve been an atheist since I learned to read.

And I read early.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Funny story: When CNN reported that Trump was lying about something that he was lying about, Sebby said they were biased for reporting that he was lying because, hey, without some form of ESP, how could they know that he was lying when he kept repeating something that was obviously false. So in Sebby's world you also can't call out "bad faith" unless someone says "I'm acting in bad faith." Which, strangely, those acting in bad faith do not tend to do.

full disclosure, Penske once admitted to me that he was lying fairly often. I should have conveyed that to the rest of you. Plus, it turns out, I didn’t mean to lie, in retrospect, but my ty@50 sock predicted emotional and intellectual growth, plus a basic realization of having posted hateful lies, that the real ty has not evolved into. Mea culpa. Mea?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Tyrone Slothrop

Funny story: When CNN reported that Trump was lying about something that he was lying about, Sebby said they were biased for reporting that he was lying because, hey, without some form of ESP, how could they know that he was lying when he kept repeating something that was obviously false. So in Sebby's world you also can't call out "bad faith" unless someone says "I'm acting in bad faith." Which, strangely, those acting in bad faith do not tend to do.

Correct. If you lie openly and badly, as Trump does, I don’t have to concern myself with people who ought to have brains buying your bullshit.

If you lie sneakily, it’s more problematic. I have to worry about “dumb smart” people like us buying the bullshit.

What needs to be fixed involves economic issues primarily. Racism is folded into that. But you dumb fucks who bristle against Taibbi miss the point. He’s telling you how you’re being suckered with a focus on race that obscures a focus on economics.

I suspect Ty and Hank grasp this a bit. Adder is the permanent sucker at the table. Credulous beyond repair.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Correct. If you lie openly and badly, as Trump does, I don’t have to concern myself with people who ought to have brains buying your bullshit.

If you lie sneakily, it’s more problematic. I have to worry about “dumb smart” people like us buying the bullshit.

What needs to be fixed involves economic issues primarily. Racism is folded into that. But you dumb fucks who bristle against Taibbi miss the point. He’s telling you how you’re being suckered with a focus on race that obscures a focus on economics.

I suspect Ty and Hank grasp this a bit. Adder is the permanent sucker at the table. Credulous beyond repair.

As long as the credulous realize Biden and and Trump aren’t basically the same and that Biden will win for sure anyway. Conf to seb drag me into these fights I snap back, hi!