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Old 06-18-2004, 10:21 AM   #2476
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Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
(I have since donated, and I'm not afraid to go all Sally Struthers on anyone's ass.)
Seems like we've got an impromptu pledge driving going on right now. So let's send some kids out in old clothes to get dirty, post a few pictures, and send in the bucks.
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Old 06-18-2004, 10:32 AM   #2477
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There He Goes Again

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Originally posted by sgtclub
You obviously know far more about the Sudan than I do. If it would only take a few thousand troops, I'd order it done tomorrow. I was under the impression it would take far more, and our military is pretty stretched as it is. Frankly, I wouldn't mind pulling out of western europe, for efficiency, geopolitical, and just plain spite.
It doesn't take much militarily if your goals are limited and you're happy to support the division of an established country.

Realize the things that make life difficult militarily are not necessarily the size of the country or the population, but the goals established and the level of resistance. Afghanistan has about the same population as Iraqs, they are about as highly armed, the terrain is more difficult, Afghanis are probably more divided ethnically than Iraq, and there is likely about as much opposition among Afghanis as Iraqis to our presence -- but our death toll is much higher in Iraq, because we are more ambitious and are trying to actually occupy and run the country. The Iraqi economy is also much larger than the Afghani one, and we are trying to play a hands-on roll in that economy.

So why is our death toll so much higher in Iraq than Afghanistan? It has nothing to do with terrorism or WMD, the stated administration goals (depending on what day you listen to them), and everything to do with oil and geopolitical goals.
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Old 06-18-2004, 11:20 AM   #2478
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http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/410014|top|06-18-2004::08:05|reuters.html

[Putin says Iraq planning attacks in US post 9/11]

What's the spin on this one, geniuses.

Quote:
ASTANA, Kazakhstan (Reuters) - Russia warned the United States on several occasions that Iraq's Saddam Hussein planned "terrorist attacks" on its soil, President Vladimir Putin said Friday.

"After the events of September 11, 2001, and before the start of the military operation in Iraq, Russian special services several times received such information and passed it on to their American colleagues," he told reporters.

The Kremlin leader, who was speaking in the Kazakh capital, said Russian intelligence services had many times received information that Saddam's special forces were preparing terrorist attacks in the United States "and beyond its borders on American military and civilian targets."

"This information was conveyed to our American colleagues," he said. He added that Russian intelligence had no proof that Saddam agents had been involved in any particular attack.

Russia had diplomatic relations with Saddam's Iraq and opposed the U.S.-led military offensive that toppled him.

Putin's comments come after President Bush was forced to defend his charge that there had been links between Saddam and al Qaeda that partly justified the U.S.-led invasion.
efq


Last edited by sgtclub; 06-18-2004 at 11:24 AM..
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Old 06-18-2004, 11:25 AM   #2479
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Originally posted by sgtclub
http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/410014|top|06-18-2004::08:05|reuters.html

[Putin says Iraq planning attacks in US post 9/11]

What's the spin on this one, geniuses.
Didn't read it because your link doesn't work. But just so I can stay current, is today's Reason To Attack Iraq that Vladimir Putin, he of the limpid eyes and good, strong, strong, good soul, said the Iraqis were a-cummin ta get us?

ETA: Thanks for your edit.
 
Old 06-18-2004, 11:31 AM   #2480
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Originally posted by ironweed
Didn't read it because your link doesn't work. But just so I can stay current, is today's Reason To Attack Iraq that Vladimir Putin, he of the limpid eyes and good, strong, strong, good soul, said the Iraqis were a-cummin ta get us?

ETA: Thanks for your edit.
Do you even realize how partisan you have become. Facts: President had evidence that Iraq was planing to attach the US. President acts. Current result: no attacks in the US. Yet, you seem to suggest he was wrong because he didn't list his intelligence sources as one of the supporting reasons for the war.

How many times did he say that Saddam was a threat? What a fucking a-hole.
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Old 06-18-2004, 11:32 AM   #2481
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Quote:
Originally posted by sgtclub
http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/410014|top|06-18-2004::08:05|reuters.html

[Putin says Iraq planning attacks in US post 9/11]

What's the spin on this one, geniuses.



efq
I think the spin is that Russia gave us information that at some point after 9/11 Iraq was planning attacks in the US.

Imagine that.

Just to be snide, anyone have any thoughts that at some point after 9/11 we began planning attacks of some sort in Iraq? Suggesting that Iraq was planning attacks against us at that point in time ought to be stating the obvious - the war drums were beating, the war dance had begun. And the idea that the obviously weaker belligerant would consider and plan for terrorism as part of their strategy strikes me as obvious. It worked in 1776.

Isn't the administration looking around for support for the proposition that the Iraqi government was mixed up with a-Q, particularly before 9-11?
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Old 06-18-2004, 11:40 AM   #2482
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Originally posted by sgtclub
Do you even realize how partisan you have become.
I haven't become partisan - I've been this way for years. Just ask Slave. But your concern is touching.

Quote:
Facts: President had evidence that Iraq was planing to attack the US. President acts. Current result: no attacks in the US.
Fact: Bert says to Ernie, "what are you honking that horn for, Ernie?" Ernie says, "to scare away the alligators, Bert." Bert says, "but there aren't any alligators around here, Ernie." Ernie says, "see Bert? It's working!!!"
 
Old 06-18-2004, 11:52 AM   #2483
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Anyone else notice...

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I've tried to donate, but never got a response to my PM or e-mail. Paypal baffles me. Where do I send the cheese? [I'll just send a check or something, because I don't care.]

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Old 06-18-2004, 11:56 AM   #2484
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Anyone else notice...

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Paypal replacedtexan@hotmail.com
Paypal baffles him. He wants to send a check or something.

ETA I love my new avatar.
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Old 06-18-2004, 12:25 PM   #2485
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Quote:
ironweed
" Bert says to Ernie, "what are you honking that horn for, Ernie?" Ernie says, "to scare away the alligators, Bert." Bert says, "but there aren't any alligators around here, Ernie." Ernie says, "see Bert? It's working!!!"
Sesame Street is much more quotable than either Blue's Clues or The Wiggles, don't you think?
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Old 06-18-2004, 12:32 PM   #2486
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Today's Parable

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A woman in a hot air balloon realized she was lost. She lowered her altitude and spotted a man in a boat below. She shouted to him, ‘Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don’t know where I am.’ The man consulted his portable GPS and replied, ‘You’re in a hot air balloon approximately 30 feet above a ground elevation of 2346 feet above sea level. You are at 31 degrees, 14.97 minutes north latitude and 100 degrees, 49.09 minutes west longitude.’

She rolled her eyes and said, ‘You must be a Republican.’

‘I am,’ replied the man. ‘How did you know?’

‘Well,’ answered the balloonist, ‘everything you have told me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to do with your information, and I’m still lost. Frankly, you’ve not been much help to me.’

The man smiled and said, ‘You must be a Democrat.’

‘I am,’ replied the balloonist. ‘How did you know?’

‘Well,’ said the man, ‘you don’t know where you are or where you are going. You’ve risen to where you are due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise that you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me to solve your problem. You’re in exactly the same position you were in before we met but, somehow, it’s my fault.
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Old 06-18-2004, 12:38 PM   #2487
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Originally posted by sgtclub
[[Putin says Iraq planning attacks in US post 9/11]
So Putin knew that SH was planning terrorist attacks against us and still was opposed to the war? He knew we were under threat but would use a veto in the Security Council to thwart our right of self-defense? Sorry, club, doesn't pass the smell test.
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Old 06-18-2004, 12:46 PM   #2488
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Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
(I have since donated, and I'm not afraid to go all Sally Struthers on anyone's ass.)
Ty has committed to pay for this December.
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Old 06-18-2004, 12:51 PM   #2489
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shape Shifter
So Putin knew that SH was planning terrorist attacks against us and still was opposed to the war? He knew we were under threat but would use a veto in the Security Council to thwart our right of self-defense? Sorry, club, doesn't pass the smell test.
So Putin is lying?

edited to add:

"Putin Lied, Putin Lied."
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Old 06-18-2004, 01:02 PM   #2490
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More Evidence

* Abdul Rahman Yasin was the only member of the al Qaeda cell that detonated the 1993 World Trade Center bomb to remain at large in the Clinton years. He fled to Iraq. U.S. forces recently discovered a cache of documents in Tikrit, Saddam's hometown, that show that Iraq gave Mr. Yasin both a house and monthly salary.

* Bin Laden met at least eight times with officers of Iraq's Special Security Organization, a secret police agency run by Saddam's son Qusay, and met with officials from Saddam's mukhabarat, its external intelligence service, according to intelligence made public by Secretary of State Colin Powell, who was speaking before the United Nations Security Council on February 6, 2003.

* Sudanese intelligence officials told me that their agents had observed meetings between Iraqi intelligence agents and bin Laden starting in 1994, when bin Laden lived in Khartoum.

* Bin Laden met the director of the Iraqi mukhabarat in 1996 in Khartoum, according to Mr. Powell.

* An al Qaeda operative now held by the U.S. confessed that in the mid-1990s, bin Laden had forged an agreement with Saddam's men to cease all terrorist activities against the Iraqi dictator, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* In 1999 the Guardian, a British newspaper, reported that Farouk Hijazi, a senior officer in Iraq's mukhabarat, had journeyed deep into the icy mountains near Kandahar, Afghanistan, in December 1998 to meet with al Qaeda men. Mr. Hijazi is "thought to have offered bin Laden asylum in Iraq," the Guardian reported.

* In October 2000, another Iraqi intelligence operative, Salah Suleiman, was arrested near the Afghan border by Pakistani authorities, according to Jane's Foreign Report, a respected international newsletter. Jane's reported that Suleiman was shuttling between Iraqi intelligence and Ayman al Zawahiri, now al Qaeda's No. 2 man.

(Why are all of those meetings significant? The London Observer reports that FBI investigators cite a captured al Qaeda field manual in Afghanistan, which "emphasizes the value of conducting discussions about pending terrorist attacks face to face, rather than by electronic means.")

* As recently as 2001, Iraq's embassy in Pakistan was used as a "liaison" between the Iraqi dictator and al Qaeda, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* Spanish investigators have uncovered documents seized from Yusuf Galan -- who is charged by a Spanish court with being "directly involved with the preparation and planning" of the Sept. 11 attacks -- that show the terrorist was invited to a party at the Iraqi embassy in Madrid. The invitation used his "al Qaeda nom de guerre," London's Independent reports.

* An Iraqi defector to Turkey, known by his cover name as "Abu Mohammed," told Gwynne Roberts of the Sunday Times of London that he saw bin Laden's fighters in camps in Iraq in 1997. At the time, Mohammed was a colonel in Saddam's Fedayeen. He described an encounter at Salman Pak, the training facility southeast of Baghdad. At that vast compound run by Iraqi intelligence, Muslim militants trained to hijack planes with knives -- on a full-size Boeing 707. Col. Mohammed recalls his first visit to Salman Pak this way: "We were met by Colonel Jamil Kamil, the camp manager, and Major Ali Hawas. I noticed that a lot of people were queuing for food. (The major) said to me: 'You'll have nothing to do with these people. They are Osama bin Laden's group and the PKK and Mojahedin-e Khalq.'"

* In 1998, Abbas al-Janabi, a longtime aide to Saddam's son Uday, defected to the West. At the time, he repeatedly told reporters that there was a direct connection between Iraq and al Qaeda.

*The Sunday Times found a Saddam loyalist in a Kurdish prison who claims to have been Dr. Zawahiri's bodyguard during his 1992 visit with Saddam in Baghdad. Dr. Zawahiri was a close associate of bin Laden at the time and was present at the founding of al Qaeda in 1989.

* Following the defeat of the Taliban, almost two dozen bin Laden associates "converged on Baghdad and established a base of operations there," Mr. Powell told the United Nations in February 2003. From their Baghdad base, the secretary said, they supervised the movement of men, materiel and money for al Qaeda's global network.

* In 2001, an al Qaeda member "bragged that the situation in Iraq was 'good,'" according to intelligence made public by Mr. Powell.

* That same year, Saudi Arabian border guards arrested two al Qaeda members entering the kingdom from Iraq.

* Abu Musaab al-Zarqawi oversaw an al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan, Mr. Powell told the United Nations. His specialty was poisons. Wounded in fighting with U.S. forces, he sought medical treatment in Baghdad in May 2002. When Zarqawi recovered, he restarted a training camp in northern Iraq. Zarqawi's Iraq cell was later tied to the October 2002 murder of Lawrence Foley, an official of the U.S. Agency for International Development, in Amman, Jordan. The captured assassin confessed that he received orders and funds from Zarqawi's cell in Iraq, Mr. Powell said. His accomplice escaped to Iraq.

*Zarqawi met with military chief of al Qaeda, Mohammed Ibrahim Makwai (aka Saif al-Adel) in Iran in February 2003, according to intelligence sources cited by the Washington Post.

* Mohammad Atef, the head of al Qaeda's military wing until the U.S. killed him in Afghanistan in November 2001, told a senior al Qaeda member now in U.S. custody that the terror network needed labs outside of Afghanistan to manufacture chemical weapons, Mr. Powell said. "Where did they go, where did they look?" said the secretary. "They went to Iraq."

* Abu Abdullah al-Iraqi was sent to Iraq by bin Laden to purchase poison gases several times between 1997 and 2000. He called his relationship with Saddam's regime "successful," Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* Mohamed Mansour Shahab, a smuggler hired by Iraq to transport weapons to bin Laden in Afghanistan, was arrested by anti-Hussein Kurdish forces in May, 2000. He later told his story to American intelligence and a reporter for the New Yorker magazine.

* Documents found among the debris of the Iraqi Intelligence Center show that Baghdad funded the Allied Democratic Forces, a Ugandan terror group led by an Islamist cleric linked to bin Laden. According to a London's Daily Telegraph, the organization offered to recruit "youth to train for the jihad" at a "headquarters for international holy warrior network" to be established in Baghdad.

* Mullah Melan Krekar, ran a terror group (the Ansar al-Islam) linked to both bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Mr. Krekar admitted to a Kurdish newspaper that he met bin Laden in Afghanistan and other senior al Qaeda officials. His acknowledged meetings with bin Laden go back to 1988. When he organized Ansar al Islam in 2001 to conduct suicide attacks on Americans, "three bin Laden operatives showed up with a gift of $300,000 'to undertake jihad,'" Newsday reported. Mr. Krekar is now in custody in the Netherlands. His group operated in portion of northern Iraq loyal to Saddam Hussein -- and attacked independent Kurdish groups hostile to Saddam. A spokesman for the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan told a United Press International correspondent that Mr. Krekar's group was funded by "Saddam Hussein's regime in Baghdad."

* After October 2001, hundreds of al Qaeda fighters are believed to have holed up in the Ansar al-Islam's strongholds inside northern Iraq.

Some skeptics dismiss the emerging evidence of a longstanding link between Iraq and al Qaeda by contending that Saddam ran a secular dictatorship hated by Islamists like bin Laden.

In fact, there are plenty of "Stalin-Roosevelt" partnerships between international terrorists and Muslim dictators. Saddam and bin Laden had common enemies, common purposes and interlocking needs. They shared a powerful hate for America and the Saudi royal family. They both saw the Gulf War as a turning point. Saddam suffered a crushing defeat which he had repeatedly vowed to avenge. Bin Laden regards the U.S. as guilty of war crimes against Iraqis and believes that non-Muslims shouldn't have military bases on the holy sands of Arabia. Al Qaeda's avowed goal for the past ten years has been the removal of American forces from Saudi Arabia, where they stood in harm's way solely to contain Saddam.

The most compelling reason for bin Laden to work with Saddam is money. Al Qaeda operatives have testified in federal courts that the terror network was always desperate for cash. Senior employees fought bitterly about the $100 difference in pay between Egyptian and Saudis (the Egyptians made more). One al Qaeda member, who was connected to the 1998 embassy bombings, told a U.S. federal court how bitter he was that bin Laden could not pay for his pregnant wife to see a doctor.

Bin Laden's personal wealth alone simply is not enough to support a profligate global organization. Besides, bin Laden's fortune is probably not as large as some imagine. Informed estimates put bin Laden's pre-Sept. 11, 2001 wealth at perhaps $30 million. $30 million is the budget of a small school district, not a global terror conglomerate. Meanwhile, Forbes estimated Saddam's personal fortune at $2 billion.

So a common enemy, a shared goal and powerful need for cash seem to have forged an alliance between Saddam and bin Laden. CIA Director George Tenet recently told the Senate Intelligence Committee: "Iraq has in the past provided training in document forgery and bomb making to al Qaeda. It also provided training in poisons and gasses to two al Qaeda associates; one of these [al Qaeda] associates characterized the relationship as successful. Mr. Chairman, this information is based on a solid foundation of intelligence. It comes to us from credible and reliable sources. Much of it is corroborated by multiple sources."

The Iraqis, who had the Third World's largest poison-gas operations prior to the Gulf War I, have perfected the technique of making hydrogen-cyanide gas, which the Nazis called Zyklon-B. In the hands of al Qaeda, this would be a fearsome weapon in an enclosed space -- like a suburban mall or subway station.


http://www.townhall.com/columnists/G...20040618.shtml
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