Politics As Usual

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
So, you personally won't be satisifed until we find the original copy of the Treaty of Baquaba, the photo of the grinning Saddam and OBL taken at the signing, and the gold plated commemorative pen.

Interesting you put it that way.

I'm coming to the conclusion that unless discovered in a Nixonesque tableau, with Bush inside the Oval personally authorizing (say) the killing of 30 or so Iraqi detainees in prisons, that none of the problems plaguing the Administration will stick to this man.

Here's a new development of which I'm particularly fond, reported by the AP:

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld defended his decision to hold a prisoner captured in Iraq without notifying international authorities, saying it was at the request of CIA Director George J. Tenet and the detainee was treated humanely.

``He wasn't lost in the system,'' Rumsfeld told reporters at the Pentagon. ``There is no question at all ... that he received humane treatment.''

The terror suspect has been held since October without being given an identification number and without the International Committee of the Red Cross being notified, Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said. Both conditions violate the Geneva Accords on treatment of prisoners of war.

Rumsfeld described him as an Iraqi who was a high-ranking member of Ansar al-Islam, a militant Islamic group believed to have orchestrated some of the bombings and guerrilla warfare in Iraq.

I so look forward to the Administration's explanation as to why the withholding of this detainee's name, done primarily TO KEEP HIS IDENTITY UNKNOWN FROM THE ICRC SO THAT THEY COULD NOT MONITOR HIS TREATMENT, was necessary. Presumably, the ICRC can join the Administration's growing list of pussies who simply don't understand the requirements of the War on (The Noun of) Terror.

Certainly, it may be more difficult to paint the International Committee of the Red Cross as a lying, wimpy, corrupt organization such as the UN, which is therefore deserving of our scorn and disdain, but I have faith in the capabilities of the Bush Administration to find the right paint and brush. After all, if the rest of the countries in the world can't understand that the ICRC can't be trusted, then fuck 'em, right?

But of course, sayeth Hank, Club, et al, this guy was a particularly important terrorist shithead! Surely we can keep this guy away from prying eyes and (as Rumsfeld assures us) "humanely treat" him until he talks!

Well, yes, I'm sure that he's a corner case, and that his singular exception from the Administration's "No Torture" Rule* is justifiable because of his special role withing the terrorist fuckhead organization. Except that apparently there are OVER A DOZEN UNDISCLOSED PRISONS THAT THE US IS MAINTAINING, SO THAT THE ICRC CAN'T SEE THEM. WHAT THE FUCK IS OUR ADMINISTRATION THINKING?

The Pentagon's admission came a day before a human rights group released a report accusing the United States of keeping an unknown number of terrorist suspects in secret lockups around the world.

A report from New York-based Human Rights First said the Bush administration was violating U.S. and international law by refusing to notify all detainees' families or give names, numbers and locations of all terror war prisoners to the Red Cross.

None of that was done in the Iraqi detainee's case, Whitman said.

Keeping secret prisoners creates conditions for abuses such as the humiliations and beatings suffered by some Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, the group argues.

``The official secrecy surrounding U.S. practices has made conditions ripe for illegality and abuse,'' said the report from Human Rights First, formerly called the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights.

The group said the United States should immediately allow Red Cross access to all terror war detainees, notify the prisoners' families and announce the number and location of such prisoners.

Thank GOD that all of this is due to the misadventures of some untrained, unsupervised National Guard punks. I hope they throw the book at Pvt. Englund.

Gattigap

*Such as it is. Since the GOP has blocked any subpoenas to a White House that told Congress to go fuck themselves over disclosing torture memos, we'll apparently be relying on the motivated public servants in the West Wing to release them when it suits them. I, for one, am not holding my breath.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Frankly, I have little doubt that Iraq dealt with al-Q at a variety of levels, just as we deal with Arafat on a variety of levels. What I don't see is any Iraqi involvement in 9/11.

* * * * *

What Bush and Cheney have been doing, however, is using the notion of an al-Q / Iraq link to suggest that Iraq is part of the global war against terrorism coming out of 9/11. 9/11 needs to be the casus belli for Iraq for the administration to sustain support.

Because an independent commission is looking at 9/11 and debunking the claims about Iraq and 9/11, the administration is falling back to this idea that Al Qaeda and Iraq were linked in other ways. In a literal but not meaningful sense, this is true, but the more important thing is that there's no independent commission or congressional investigation that threatens to call them on it.

[The Larry Davis Experience]

I think Ty would calls this post Fisking, but I'm not sure if that term has some weird FB connotation or something. [It's a blogging term that bilmore can explain. -- T.S.] [Is this the board equivalent of "ask your father when he gets home"? -- LDE] Anyway, I realize these contacts have been in the public domain for a long time now, but a couple of them are pretty entertaining in their presentation here.

Originally posted by sgtclub
* Abdul Rahman Yasin was the only member of the al Qaeda cell that detonated the 1993 World Trade Center bomb to remain at large in the Clinton years. He fled to Iraq.

As Clarke pointed out in his 911 Commission testimony, Yasin was the only guy from the 1993 plot who was Iraqi. At the time for various, um, diplomatic reasons it was pretty tough for us to get him extradited.

* Bin Laden met at least eight times with officers of Iraq's Special Security Organization, a secret police agency run by Saddam's son Qusay, and met with officials from Saddam's mukhabarat, its external intelligence service, according to intelligence made public by Secretary of State Colin Powell, who was speaking before the United Nations Security Council on February 6, 2003.

Unless I'm reading the committee info wrong, these meetings establish that Saddam had a relationship with OBL the same way I had "a relationship" with any one of the many women who have refused my repeated requests for a date.

* In 2001, an al Qaeda member "bragged that the situation in Iraq was 'good,'" according to intelligence made public by Mr. Powell.

Ohkay.

* Abu Musaab al-Zarqawi oversaw an al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan, Mr. Powell told the United Nations. His specialty was poisons. Wounded in fighting with U.S. forces, he sought medical treatment in Baghdad in May 2002.

This generic "treatment", of course, used to be described as a leg amputation. Apparently Zarqawi is a new model of terrorist from the future who can regrow limbs, based on recent video footage of a two-legged person identified by the govt as Zarqawi.

* Mohammad Atef, the head of al Qaeda's military wing until the U.S. killed him in Afghanistan in November 2001, told a senior al Qaeda member now in U.S. custody that the terror network needed labs outside of Afghanistan to manufacture chemical weapons, Mr. Powell said. "Where did they go, where did they look?" said the secretary. "They went to Iraq."

Well, this one does give me pause. After all, we should be able to find chemical weapons labs in Iraq once we have a chance to focus on looking for stuff like that.

* Abu Abdullah al-Iraqi

This name cracks me up for some reason. I think he must be the Iraqi version of the eeeeevil Senator Mendoza from the McBain movies.

Back on the topic, I'm not arrogant enough to believe that an anonymous poster can convince you to take your heels out of the sand, but I would think even a supporter like you would understand how this evidence might not go very far to explain Cheney's loooong line of statements on this topic.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Here's a new development of which I'm particularly fond, reported by the AP:

I so look forward to the Administration's explanation as to why the withholding of this detainee's name, done primarily TO KEEP HIS IDENTITY UNKNOWN FROM THE ICRC SO THAT THEY COULD NOT MONITOR HIS TREATMENT, was necessary. Presumably, the ICRC can join the Administration's growing list of pussies who simply don't understand the requirements of the War on (The Noun of) Terror.

This story gets even worse. After hiding this guy from the ICRC, they lost track of him, and failed to interrogate him for several months:

• Seven months later, however, the detainee - a reputed senior officer of Ansar al-Islam, a group the United States has linked to Al Qaeda and blames for some attacks in Iraq - is still languishing at the prison but has only been questioned once while in detention, in what government officials acknowledged was an extraordinary lapse.
  
  “Once he was placed in military custody, people lost track of him,” a senior intelligence official conceded Wednesday night. “The normal review processes that would keep track of him didn’t.”
  
  The detainee was described by the official as someone “who was actively planning operations specifically targeting U.S. forces and interests both inside and outside of Iraq.”
  
  But once he was placed into custody at Camp Cropper, where about 100 detainees deemed to have the highest intelligence value are held, he received only one cursory arrival interrogation from military officers and was never again questioned by any other military or intelligence officers, according to Pentagon and intelligence officials.

More, if yo can stomach it.

So it's not a ruthless contempt for international law, it's an incompetent contempt for international law.

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
The detainee was described by the official as someone “who was actively planning operations specifically targeting U.S. forces and interests both inside and outside of Iraq.”

Do you really believe that - aside from hand-wringing lawyers like us - that anyone in the US, after reading that point above, taken together with another civilian beheading [see news], is going to give a flying fuck?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Do you really believe that - aside from hand-wringing lawyers like us - that anyone in the US, after reading that point above, taken together with another civilian beheading [see news], is going to give a flying fuck?

This is sick.

The administration's incompetance that TY was pointing out is irrelevant because terrorists behead an American? The administration's incompetance is even more relevant because of this.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Do you really believe that - aside from hand-wringing lawyers like us - that anyone in the US, after reading that point above, taken together with another civilian beheading [see news], is going to give a flying fuck?

What 3Greedy said. But I also don't think that this juxtaposition of contempt for the law and incompetence is coincidental.

eta: And another thing -- people in the US are smart enough to see that we invaded Iraq, and yet Al Qaeda is still beheading US citizens in other countries. What did the invasion have to do with fighting Al Qaeda? Not fucking much.* If everything turns up roses and the Middle East democratizes itself suddenly, then maybe that $200 billion won't have been a waste, but right now it's looking to most of us like the admininistration mislead people to waste a collosal amount of money and too many human lives on a misguided effort that hasn't made us any safer. People do give a flying fuck about that.

* Which is the real answer to the smoke Cheney is blowing. Knowing what we do now, does anyone think the "connections" between Iraq and Al Qaeda made an invasion of the former the right move. Unequivocally, no. It's all an exercise in CYA.

e again ta: From Ruy Texeira's blog: "According to [a recent] LAT poll, Bush's approval rating on Iraq is just 44 percent, with 55 percent disapproval. By 53-43, the public now believes the situation in Iraq was not worth going to war over. And by 61-35, they believe the US is getting bogged down in Iraq, rather than making good progress. Finally, just 35 percent believe Bush has offered a clear plan on how he would handle the Iraq situation, compared to 44 percent who believe he has not."

[SlaveNoMore]

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
This is sick.

The administration's incompetance that TY was pointing out is irrelevant because terrorists behead an American? The administration's incompetance is even more relevant because of this.

Like a typical Red Sox fan, you need to be bonked over the head in order to get anything.

I am clearly stating that if you think that Joe Sixpack voter is going to give one shit about some self-avowed terrorist being lost in the system, then I have an Island I'd like to sell you.

As a political (i.e., will voters care) issue, it is highly rrelevant, yes.

Quite frankly, given the vengeful bloodlust of many average Americans, the more civilians they kill, the less anyone is going to care about torture. It's a simple undeniable fact.

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
The administration's incompetance that TY was pointing out is irrelevant because terrorists behead an American?

It's actually multiple choice when it comes to defending GWB:

The Administration's incompetence/flaunting of the law/misleading the public is irrelevant because:

(a) the terrorists have beheaded an American.
(b) of the horror of 9/11. Were you there? Then shaddup.
(c) Kerry is a pussy with foofy hair.
(d) Putin sez Iraq was fixin' to attack.
(e) all of the above.

As the man said, if you're not with us, your agin' us. So quit asking questions and get with the program, whatever it is.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Like a typical Red Sox fan, you need to be bonked over the head in order to get anything.

I am clearly stating that if you think that Joe Sixpack voter is going to give one shit about some self-avowed terrorist being lost in the system, then I have an Island I'd like to sell you.

As a political (i.e., will voters care) issue, it is highly rrelevant, yes.

Quite frankly, given the vengeful bloodlust of many average Americans, the more civilians they kill, the less anyone is going to care about torture. It's a simple undeniable fact.

The administration is losing terrorists in its Iraqi prisons and failing to question them, but people just won't care. Tell me again why you guys think democracy is a good idea for other countries?

[Replaced_Texan]

Al Qaida claims that they've beheaded Paul Johnson. Picture of severed head.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...apped_american
(spree: news story not containing picture of severed head)

eta spree -- T.S.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
the more civilians they kill, the less anyone is going to care about torture. It's a simple undeniable fact.

Yep. The average American thinks the 9/11 murders were Iraqis and that the state of New Mexico is in another country. The average American is only a smidgen smarter than your average FB poster.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally posted by ironweed
It's actually multiple choice when it comes to defending GWB:

The Administration's incompetence/flaunting of the law/misleading the public is irrelevant because:

(a) the terrorists have beheaded an American.
.

AQ is purposely doing this to increase Bush's Iraq approval rating and thus increase his chances of reelection b/c they know he hasn't done shit to track them down.

Once again, Bin Laden should be dead by now.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The administration is losing terrorists in its Iraqi prisons and failing to question them, but people just won't care. Tell me again why you guys think democracy is a good idea for other countries?

What does the system of government that people live under have to do with the price of falafel in Cairo?

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
Once again, Bin Laden should be dead by now.

If only Al Gore were president, I am sure that he would be, right?