Fashion Board 4-6-04 to 5-7-04

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
Also, Atkinson never dated Tyra Banks, so far as I know.

True, but what about the fondness for gold jewellery and year-round tan?

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
No, I don't think so. But I do think that there are a good number of people out there who harbor those thoughts yet really and sincerely don't realize that they do. The ideas are obviously perkolating around in there somewhere to come out in unguarded moments, but I really think that some people - maybe a large number - are sincerely shocked when they discover what is lurking around in the back of their minds. . . . .

True theme, but I'd disagree with the application here.

For someone to casually spout "lazy nigger", even in the face of frustration, I think that "nigger" word has to be floating a lot closer to the surface than you posit.

[Bad_Rich_Chic]

Originally posted by Not Me
It is absolutely ridiculous to think that the mere uttering of a racial slur is proof someone is a racist.

Well, short of lynchings, you have to admit it is somewhat persuasive evidence. There is a lot to be said for judging people based on actions not words, but racism isn't a malady of action only, it is a set of ideas, and ideas often find their expression in words. My dad's never gone out gay-bashing, some of his best customers are gay, he is invariably charming to, and sometimes quite likes, my gay friends, but he sure as hell is a homophobe. He knows it, too, and is ashamed of it, but he still is.

In any event, I didn't say this guy was a racist, I just said the ideas were floating about in his head somewhere, 'cause they didn't involuntarily spurt from his mouth because he was temporarily under the sway of the military-industrial complex's mind-control beam. I must admit, I don't know quite what I think "being racist" means, really. I've got my own "know it when I see it" standard, but we all know that is a pretty useless, bullshit standard to try to apply broadly. I'm pretty sure it's different than yours or Thurgreed's.

Blacks give these words power by having such histrionic reaction to these words.

Too sensitive, eh?

[DFH's_Shit_Shoveler]

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
Well, short of lynchings, you have to admit it is somewhat persuasive evidence. There is a lot to be said for judging people based on actions not words, but racism isn't a malady of action only, it is a set of ideas, and ideas often find their expression in words. My dad's never gone out gay-bashing, some of his best customers are gay, he is invariably charming to, and sometimes quite likes, my gay friends, but he sure as hell is a homophobe. He knows it, too, and is ashamed of it, but he still is.

In any event, I didn't say this guy was a racist, I just said the ideas were floating about in his head somewhere, 'cause they didn't involuntarily spurt from his mouth because he was temporarily under the sway of the military-industrial complex's mind-control beam. I must admit, I don't know quite what I think "being racist" means, really. I've got my own "know it when I see it" standard, but we all know that is a pretty useless, bullshit standard to try to apply broadly. I'm pretty sure it's different than yours or Thurgreed's.

Too sensitive, eh?

Are we debating racism with provocation socks again? Yay!!!

[bilmore]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
However, I believe that the term "PC" has evolved in this country. Whenever any action or criticism is leveled at an individual based on something they've said about another person, the person who made the statement is a victim of an overly PC world.

We're probably agreeing, but . . .

PC does have a meaning, in spite of its overuse and defensive misuse. If you dispute an argument I make, and you use facts and logic to do so, and I respond that your dispute is invalid because it's an ad hominem attack, when it's not, I haven't redefined "ad hominem", I've just misued it. I think that's what's happened to "PC".

In my head, an endless loop of

I KNOW I'll NEVER LOVE this WAY again.

Who sang that fucking song?

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
Well, that's one way to look at it.

However, I believe that the term "PC" has evolved in this country. Whenever any action or criticism is leveled at an individual based on something they've said about another person, the person who made the statement is a victim of an overly PC world.

I look at what other people think of as useless PCisms as a positive trend. I believe that people should be called what they want to be called. Whether, like in my conversation awhile back with leagl, a transvestite wants to be referred to as a woman or an asian man wants to be referred to as such instead of an "oriental," I think it's a good thing. It makes people think before they speak. And most often, the people who have trouble with that are lazy and overly set in their ways -- can't let go of the labels they've used for so long.


TM

I'm glad you feel that way. I would appreciate it if from now on, instead of "fatty" you refer to me as a physique-challenged, hair-deficit victim.

I blame John Blasedow.

[Aloha Mr. Learned Hand]

Originally posted by paigowprincess
In my head, an endless loop of

I KNOW I'll NEVER LOVE this WAY again.

Who sang that fucking song?

That would be Dionne Warwick, pre-Psychic Friends Network.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
Too sensitive, eh?

It is not about sensitivity. It is more about what it says when you let these racial slurs get to you like that. As an example, if someone calls an Italian a whoop or a guido, most Italians I know just laugh. It doesn't bother them because it is just laughable to them that anyone would consider them inferior because they are Italian.

But blacks don't laugh at racial slurs. Why isn't it laughable to blacks to be considered inferior? I think this is another example of internalized racism.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
But I do think that there are a good number of people out there who harbor those thoughts yet really and sincerely don't realize that they do.

I guess that's where we differ. I don't think those things about other people. I can't see how, if I was in an argument with someone and it got really heated or if I was watching a game and the white guy doesn't play defense, I would say something like, "Fucking cracker ass cracker!" The thought never enters my mind. I may think the object of my anger is a piece of shit based on their actions only. I've seen other people revert (pretty quickly) to racism when they're angry and then say they didn't mean it or they were surprised by it (like in this case) later on. But I don't buy it. My friends have never acted that way to anyone.

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
The ideas are obviously perkolating around in there somewhere to come out in unguarded moments, but I really think that some people - maybe a large number - are sincerely shocked when they discover what is lurking around in the back of their minds.

I don't think so. In the immediate case, he called the guy a lazy nigger because he thought the guy was responsible for his team losing the game. If you think he was surprised that that popped into his head, I'd like to borrow your rose-colored glasses, Pollyanna.

As for other people, if things like that pop into your head over and over again (and if it comes out of your mouth, you've probably thought it at least 100 times before), you can't be surprised by them. So, "sincerely shocked?" Again, I don't buy it.

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
I think most people have very little idea what actually goes on in their own heads - part ignorance, part "don't want to know." When it finally walks up and says "Howdy," they tend to be shocked and appalled, whatever it is.

Let's agree to disagree.

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
To the extent that people have racist thoughts and are surprised by them, I can't say it's an entirely bad thing.

Me either. But I don't think it happens all that often.

If you're talking racist stereotypes, I would agree with you. That stuff has been drilled into people's heads since birth. When I pass you on the street and you move your purse to your other shoulder to keep me from snatching it, you may think to yourself, later on that you were shocked that you did that. I'm with you on that one. But I disagree with you on the other.

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
At least this guy didn't try to double talk his way out of what he'd said or offer some half-apology tainted by explanations and attempted mitigation.

We read it differently. I think this whole "I'm shocked by what I said" attitude is crap. It removes him from responsibility for what he's done because it just sort of happened to him.

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
eta: I also approve of the way he resigned: immediately, without waiting to see which way the wind blew. Seems very un-American of him.

Maybe he didn't want to get fired. Maybe he wanted the attention off of him as soon as possible. Maybe he wanted to get another job someday and decided to show the now-requisite minimum amount of contrition. Whatever the reason, I'm not going to jump in line to pat him on the back.

TM

[spookyfish]

Originally posted by paigowprincess
There is a difference between quiet understated charm and generic personalityless cruise ship belting. I dont htink either will win but I think John Stevens may last longer.

How about an AI pool? Maybe the winner can get a survivor buff? or somethign from Fox?

I'm not inclined to disagree with this, but I find it difficult to locate what you call J.S's quiet understated charm. Every time I have watched him sing, he has positively no range and looks uncomfortable up there. Because of this, he doesn't connect with the audience. He doesn't engage them and he is incapable of moving out of his little niche.

I can appreciate the fact that you like him because his style is different from the others, but that isn't what this competition is about, otherwise why bother having the contestants sing from different genres, including country, movie themes, etc. This is about versatility and talent. John falls woefully short in both departments, compared with most of the others. Although I will say that if the voting continues as it has, he probably will hang around longer than La Toya, but just because he might, doesn't mean that he deserves to do so.

And I agree with you about La Toya. She is probably the most technically perfect singer in the competition, but she also does not connect with the audience. I think I made the cruise ship singer comment last week myself, as you may recall.

As for your pool idea, I think that's interesting, but after this week, I'm not sure it will be as interesting as it could have been, and if the callers keep picking off some of the more talented contestants, it isn't going to get any better.

FWIW, I'd like to see George win it now out of those who are left, but even he won't deserve it if he doesn't step it up from here on out.

[John Bayesdow Disciple]

Originally posted by taxwonk
I'm glad you feel that way. I would appreciate it if from now on, instead of "fatty" you refer to me as a physique-challenged, hair-deficit victim.

I blame John Blasedow.

I blame heterosexual marriage, McDonald's and the Mini. Short, fat car for short, fat people. .

[spookyfish]

Originally posted by DFH's_Shit_Shoveler
Are we debating racism with provocation socks again? Yay!!!

You're my hero.

[John Bayesdow Disciple]

Originally posted by spookyfish
I'm not inclined to disagree with this, but I find it difficult to locate what you call J.S's quiet understated charm. Every time I have watched him sing, he has positively no range and looks uncomfortable up there. Because of this, he doesn't connect with the audience. He doesn't engage them and he is incapable of moving out of his little niche.

I can appreciate the fact that you like him because his style is different from the others, but that isn't what this competition is about, otherwise why bother having the contestants sing from different genres, including country, movie themes, etc. This is about versatility and talent. John falls woefully short in both departments, compared with most of the others. Although I will say that if the voting continues as it has, he probably will hang around longer than La Toya, but just because he might, doesn't mean that he deserves to do so.

And I agree with you about La Toya. She is probably the most technically perfect singer in the competition, but she also does not connect with the audience. I think I made the cruise ship singer comment last week myself, as you may recall.

As for your pool idea, I think that's interesting, but after this week, I'm not sure it will be as interesting as it could have been, and if the callers keep picking off some of the more talented contestants, it isn't going to get any better.

FWIW, I'd like to see George win it now out of those who are left, but even he won't deserve it if he doesn't step it up from here on out.

Paigow is right, you are wrong. And Paigow invented the assignment of "cruise ship singer" to describe generic balladeering last AI season. See her descriptions of Julia, Kimbery or Gay, I mean Clay.

But thanks for shaving.

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally posted by bilmore
True theme, but I'd disagree with the application here.

For someone to casually spout "lazy nigger", even in the face of frustration, I think that "nigger" word has to be floating a lot closer to the surface than you posit.

I'm agreeing with bilmore again! A red-letter day.

I have not scrolled all the way through, but this discussion got me thinking about sexism. There are some men who say sexist things occasionally (for example - lazy bitch - I use the word bitch a lot, but I still consider it a sexist term - maybe that is a whole other discussion), and refer to women as girls, and are generally un-PC in their use of vocabulary, but work very well with women, promote women and recommend women for partnership regularly (I am thinking of a partner I used to work closely with who, if you didn't scratch the surface and look at his track record, you would think he was a real pig. He was also a womanizer and told me I had a nice ass once or twice)

I think of these kinds of men as having a sort of benign sexism, because it is cancelled out by the fact that they are not sexist in their actions - i.e. with the guy I am thinking of, it was really all about your brain if you wanted to succeed with him.

Of course, it was a pain in the ass, but that's life. I'm just not sure men like that should be condemned as sexist because it's more complex than that. (not that I would condone that kind of speech).

Also not sure if this kind of behavior can translate to a race context. I was just thinking about it.