Fashion Board 4-6-04 to 5-7-04

[leagleaze]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Are you taking volunteers?

No. If TM wants to be involved that is fine, people already know he can be trusted, he founded it after all. You're a lizard, no one trusts you.

[leagleaze]

Originally posted by paigowprincess
Leagl is retiring from the boards?

Yes.

Originally posted by leagleaze
Yes.

when, why , what?

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
I'm sure we've had this conversation on the FB before, but I think of "bitch" as the equivalent of "dick" for guys. You can't call a woman a stupid dick. It doesn't work. When I think, "What a fucking bitch," about a woman, it's the same as when I think, "What a fucking asshole," about a man. And I never call women assholes. The offensive behavior is the same. But the terms aren't interchangeable.

But maybe the fact that there really is no actual gender equivalent slur for guys means something. What do people think?

TM

Oh, you know a female asshole when you see one. I've actually had this discussion before, and we determined that a certain waitress at our bar was an asshole, after discussing how rare it is to call a woman an asshole.

[Bad_Rich_Chic]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
I don't think those things about other people.

You sure about that? What if you're wrong? If I hear you call someone a cunt should I assume that you're a conscious, intentional, raging woman-hater all the time who's just managed to conceal it until now?

eta, instead of posting yet again: fwiw, I agree that "bitch" generally isn't that bad, rough equivalent of asshole or dick, though somewhat worse than either because of the sub-human (rather than merely anatomically reductive) implication. But "cunt" is pretty much inexcusably sexist, whether directed at a man (fairly common in the UK) or a woman. And sometimes "bitch" is used in a context that makes it clear that it is not sexism-neutral - the way it gets used in some rap music, for example. Still not as bad as cunt, though. Odd that I can't think of an English term for a penis that is just unambiguously perjorative like cunt. They have them in other languages.

In the immediate case, he called the guy a lazy nigger because he thought the guy was responsible for his team losing the game. If you think he was surprised that that popped into his head, I'd like to borrow your rose-colored glasses, Pollyanna.

Seems like Bilmore's point - to use that word, it's gotta be a lot closer to the surface than my discussion implies. That You're probably right. But, given the word's ubiquity and fame as the "worst horrible insulting thing to say ever," I note that the word itself can't help but be close to the surface, where ever one's sentiments may lie.

And, no, you can't borrow my rose-colored glasses. They won't look half as fetching on you. Besides, you might bend them.

If you're talking racist stereotypes, I would agree with you. That stuff has been drilled into people's heads since birth. When I pass you on the street and you move your purse to your other shoulder to keep me from snatching it, you may think to yourself, later on that you were shocked that you did that.

I pretty much was talking stereotyping, I guess, but, as I said, I think the whole discussion of racism, and what constitutes racism, and where is the line between racism and something else, and is there such a line, and words vs. action vs. context, etc. etc., is just really, really weird and complicated and I just have no sense that I know what any of it means, or even what I individually think it means. If I can't know my own soul, I sure as hell can't make conclusions about someone else's.

But you're wrong about my bag when I see you on the street - you dress far too well. I am a raging classist, which overwhelms just about everything else. (Hell, if you saw the mess I look today, you'd probably pull your cuff down to cover your watch.) And as for my hiding my wallet when I saw you last, well, dude, that's because you're such a mooch at the bar ....

[leagleaze]

Originally posted by paigowprincess
when, why , what?

May 8, just because, I'm not sure what what means, RT will be taking my place.

[dtb]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
I find it interesting that the people who say things like this always follow it with, "I made a stupid mistake which I regret," or "I can't believe I did it. It was just a moment of stupidity."

You made a mistake? Uh, no. You actually think that way. I guess the mistake was that you accidentally let people in on the way you actually feel? That's what you regret. And that's what you can't believe you did. These types of people see that "moment of stupidity" as when it comes out of their mouth and not the many, many times they've thought that shit and wanted to say it in the past.

Amen. It's like the thief who is not at all sorry he stole the money, just very, very sorry he got caught. I wonder if the person making the "apology" even believes for a moment that he doesn't really think that way and it just "slipped out". I doubt it.

Mr. dtb once made an unflattering remark (not nearly as high on the offensiveness chart as "nigger" -- but some who heard the remark were not pleased) that was widely (albeit unintentionally) heard. (A lesson learned the hard way -- always, ALWAYS hang up after leaving a voice mail; especially when you continue to have a conversation with your colleague about the person you've just left a message for. Also, if you're going to talk shit about someone on an unintentionally recorded message, it's best not to leave your name and phone number on the message.) While he did apologize for the manner of dissemination, he never apologized for what he said, because he believes it. To one person's credit (a person in the "group" he offended), she said, "Hey -- you're entitled to your opinion -- you just got caught!", to which mr.dtb replied, "That's right!".

He may not have a popular attitude, but at least he doesn't try to hide it.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
You know I agree with you on this - people should absolutely be addressed as they wish, be that with respect to race, sex, names and titles or whatever. However, "people" is individuals, and there still needs to be a clearly and universally understood default fallback for when individual preferences aren't known. And it can't change often - even once a generation is a lot, because even then you have at least 3 generations at any given time, each having been taught - forcefully - a different term of respect and every other generation taking and giving dire insult. And people who have spent their lives using a term, title or description that was legitimately respectful really have to be grandfathered in for a significant amount of time (w/r/t the default use of the term only, of course - knowledge of an individual preference overrides anything else). Society-wide usage can't change in 10 or 15 years just because a younger generation has a new political point of view.

Yez. I considered all these excuses when I said (among other things), "I recognize that it's not easy."

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
We agree wholeheartedly that people should always be aware of and thinking about how to address others with respect - but the purpose of having society wide standards of manners (i.e.: society wide standards of how not to insult people unintentionally) is so that people who wish to be respectful have a reasonable chance of getting it right and not having to worry that the correct form of address has changed this year (or this decade, for that matter). No one is well served if everyone is walking about on eggshells afraid to address each other.

I think we have that already. If you stick to the larger classifications, you are pretty safe. If you call someone from asia, Asian, you'll be okay. The few times that you offend a Kenyan by calling him African-American or a black guy because you don't call him African-American (or whatever other example I'm sure someone will dig up that is not representative of what typically happens) you're probably still in good shape with that person. They will see that you are conscientious and when they correct you it's because you have already expressed the willingness to get it right.

Originally posted by Bad_Rich_Chic
The transvestite issue is actually a pretty interesting one, because it is rare enough (or unacknowledged enough) that there isn't a specific, generally known default for the situation, so you have to default to the default-default: you address someone as they present themselves (which means someone presenting as a female is addressed as a female, and if a transvestite objects that dressing like a woman does not lessen their inherent masculinity, which has happened to me, you just apologize and say you weren't aware of their preference and get it right the next time).

Agreed. Leagl set me straight on this one already. Makes perfect sense.

TM

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by leagleaze
You're a lizard, no one trusts you.

How very un-PC.

[leagleaze]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
How very un-PC.

Why thank you.

[Flinty_McFlint]

Originally posted by Fugee
If I could reach my hand through the computer screen and over the internet, I'd smack your face.

You might be interested in being one of my beta testers. See my sig.


ETA: Damn, Aloha has my number. Shut down again.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
But maybe the fact that there really is no actual gender equivalent slur for guys means something. What do people think?

I posted this on the Stalin Board once. Simone De Beauvoir once aid that there are two kinds of people; human beings and women. When women start acting like human beings they are accused of trying to be men.

[NotFromHere]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
I'll talk about him when I collect his death pool bonus points.

But why does the drinking matter? Don't bartenders get arrested for that? And there's no scarlet list for it either.

Well if he gets sent to prison you can almost be assured that he won't make it for very long. I can only imagine the photos of a Michael who hasn't had his hair colored, straightened, permed, greased. With no make-up (i know a lot of it is tatooed - but that pancake - ugh) and dressed all in orange. Or is it orange at minimum security? Gray? Stripes?

And the drinking - well, more than one kid said he's offered them the jesus juice in the coke cans.

[purse junkie]

Originally posted by NotFromHere
Shocked that no one is talking about Michael Jackson

Because it's just too painful. I'm still recovering from the shock of his "Bad"-era nose job, for God's sake.

[purse junkie]

Originally posted by NotFromHere

And the drinking - well, more than one kid said he's offered them the jesus juice in the coke cans.

Funny, that's not what we called it when we smuggled it on the bus in soda cans on 6th-grade field trips.

Still, it's sweet that he apparently believes in transubstantiation. Like's *he's* gonna be saved.