Waiting for Fitzgerald

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
I was thinking you meant Franken, but then realized that he's the one doing the torturing, so that can't be what you meant.

Please refer to my many posts to Slave about reading the DU site. They apply equally here.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think all of those would be misguided adventures.

Misguided, like, the basic goal would be wrong, or like, it would be hard to execute properly? I agree with the latter. If you mean the former, why? Where is the error of philosophy in trying to save lives, improve lives, and foster happiness over slavery?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
Why is that off-base? In both instances, the "culture" consists of one group with absolute power causing pain, death, and inconvenience to another, powerless, group. In each instance, we delivered that second group from a bad, bad time into a much better one.

Well, to start with, you're using the word "culture" in a way that is completely divorced from the way the rest of us educated, English-speaking people use it -- indeed, in a way that kinda sorta misses the point of my original post. I believe you understand this, on some level.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think all of those would be misguided adventures. But I do find it striking that most conservatives are willing to offer democratic principles as a post hoc justification for what has already been done and yet have nothing to say about all of the ways that George Bush has fallen short in the continuing struggle for freedome around the world. It's like they don't really give a shit about democracy, really.

To my memory, he's freed several more countries from totalitarian despot governments than did the last several presidents. Maybe Reagan might give him a run for his money, but . . . Carter? Clinton? Bush 1? (Okay, he's probably tied for second with Reagan.)

When did you guys become the party of "ignore that crying child, he's not mine"?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
Misguided, like, the basic goal would be wrong, or like, it would be hard to execute properly? I agree with the latter. If you mean the former, why? Where is the error of philosophy in trying to save lives, improve lives, and foster happiness over slavery?

They would be hard -- no, impossible -- to pull off. We need not discuss the principled grounds for objecting to an effort to change another country's government because we can't, in any event, pull it off in these cases.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
. . . .the rest of us educated, English-speaking people . . .

Penske was right. Derision has totally replaced debate. And, given my memory of college soc, and the expansive meaning of "culture" in the lexicon, it's not serving you well.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
To my memory, he's freed several more countries from totalitarian despot governments than did the last several presidents. Maybe Reagan might give him a run for his money, but . . . Carter? Clinton? Bush 1? (Okay, he's probably tied for second with Reagan.)

When did you guys become the party of "ignore that crying child, he's not mine"?

There's Iraq. The jury is still out on whether the long-term solution will be much better than Hussein was at the time we invaded.

Is there another country that George Bush freed from a totalitarian despot government? I haven't been reading Powerline lately.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
Penske was right. Derision has totally replaced debate. And, given my memory of college soc, and the expansive meaning of "culture" in the lexicon, it's not serving you well.

If you seriously think that my reference to changing culture meant that I would oppose liberating Treblinka, you should go back for remedial kindergarten.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
We need not discuss the principled grounds for objecting to an effort to change another country's government because we can't, in any event, pull it off in these cases.

This baffles me. If I see you, over the border, in chains, your family dead at your side, and a thug aiming his gun at you for the final shot, do I have to debate the principled grounds for interfering with his governance? According to you, I do. Well, I won't. You can sit here and moralize and temporize while more die, and I sincerely hope you feel nobler for it.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
. . .you should go back for remedial kindergarten.

Damn. Riposte! I yield. My argument clearly is weak.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
This baffles me. If I see you, over the border, in chains, your family dead at your side, and a thug aiming his gun at you for the final shot, do I have to debate the principled grounds for interfering with his governance? According to you, I do.

Where did I say that? I said that if the gun isn't loaded, why bother having an argument about principle.

You have a serious reading comprehension problem.

My argument clearly is weak.

OK, never mind. You're on top of it already.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Where did I say that? I said that if the gun isn't loaded, why bother having an argument about principle.

You have a serious reading comprehension problem.

You said "We need not discuss the principled grounds for objecting to an effort to change another country's government because we can't, in any event, pull it off in these cases. . . ." in the context of a discussion treating Iraq, through example of all the other countries we haven't invaded yet. We stopped that thug from taking more shots. Your "in any event" implies a connection between your principled discussion of the newly listed countries and the original discussion.

See? I did that with nary an insult. Try it. Then call Sidd.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by bilmore
I was thinking you meant Franken, but then realized that he's the one doing the torturing, so that can't be what you meant.

Hoo!

Hooo Hoo! Heh.

No, actually I suspect that Ty was referring to those getting the shit beat out of them, and how those folks might not show up to the meeting in fear of getting flayed. Capt. Fishback, and 90 Senators, might show up to the meeting, though, to tell the Administration they can't simply torture and kill in the name of the War on Terror, which the Bushies clearly want the latitude to do.

But on second thought, I like your approach better. It allows us to chuckle in a jovial, self-contented way, and conclude over a nice cognac that those who deign to complain about torture at the hands of US personnel are simply liberal intellectuals whining about nonexistent problems, akin to library records.

Gattigap

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I think all of those would be misguided adventures. But I do find it striking that most conservatives are willing to offer democratic principles as a post hoc justification for what has already been done and yet have nothing to say about all of the ways that George Bush has fallen short in the continuing struggle for freedome around the world. It's like they don't really give a shit about democracy, really.

In case you haven't noticed our resources are stretched a little thin. Soon as we wrap up Iraq we will keep up the march. However, I am confused with your position. Have we spent too much money and resources on providing elections in Iraq and in Afghanistan, or do we need to spend more? Are there some other countrys that we haven't invaded yet to set up democracies that we should? Syria, Iran, North Korea - or do you think that some how we can get democracy to sprout there on there own with out using force, and we just haven't done we needs to be done to make that happen?

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
There's Iraq. The jury is still out on whether the long-term solution will be much better than Hussein was at the time we invaded.

Is there another country that George Bush freed from a totalitarian despot government? I haven't been reading Powerline lately.

There is another country sandwiched between Pakistan and Iran, it is called Afghanistan. Maybe you have heard of it?