General discussion - Mom and Dad Esq.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Oliver_Wendell_Ramone
Anybody have any thoughts/experiences re Montessori education? I think a lot of the philosophy makes sense, especially in the 3-6 year old range. I am also impressed by the teachers I've met; very into what they do, and with regard to the younger kids, way beyond a typical preschool teacher. On the other hand, I'm not sure my 3-year old needs to be in school every day (with mom currently in stay-at-home mode). And the whole thing can seem a bit new-agey and cult-like (e.g., "the cosmic child" and the constant and reverential references to Dr. Montesorri).

Any thoughts? I think we're leaning toward giving it a try.

See how the kid likes and reacts to it.

Our kids have all gone to the same pre-school, which has a very well developed developmental learning philosophy (not Montessori). One of them just was absolutely perfect for the school, it brought out the best in her and she just shined. It was not as good for another, who turns out to have some dislexia and needed more structure to compensate. Different personalities do better in different settings and with different learning methods.

Also, we've looked at Montessori schools that are very different from each other, and a lot depends on the teacher. Having the kid and teacher, or kid and lead teacher if it is, as I suspect, a setting with multiple teachers, spend fifteen minutes interacting will likely give you a good idea if there is some chemistry.

[Oliver_Wendell_Ramone]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
See how the kid likes and reacts to it.

Having the kid and teacher, or kid and lead teacher if it is, as I suspect, a setting with multiple teachers, spend fifteen minutes interacting will likely give you a good idea if there is some chemistry.

Very good point. In fact, little Ruth Bader Ramone spent the better part of an hour hanging out in the classroom with the lead teacher (or "guide") yesterday, and absolutely loved it. She's going to spend the morning there tomorrow. We'll see how it goes.

[baltassoc]

Originally posted by Oliver_Wendell_Ramone
Anybody have any thoughts/experiences re Montessori education?

Any thoughts? I think we're leaning toward giving it a try.

I'll give you a slightly different perspective: I was a Montessori kid, and I loved it. So much so that the baltspawn are already on the list for the local Montessori.

I had a lot of freedom to learn and explore, but I really don't remember it as a free-for-all. There were lots of group activities, but on the occassions that a student didin't want to participate, the issue wasn't forced. I suppose if a kid is predisposed towards being antisocial, this might be a problem, but there is encouragement to participate in various activities, just no mandate.

On the down side, I did have discipline problems throughout elementary school. I always attributed this to being bored because most of my (public) elemenatry school education was redundant to what I had learned in Montessori (full time 3 years 2-5, then after school three years 6-9), But Atticus points to a different contributing factor that I have to admit in retrospect may have been a part of it. Still, it's hard to lay the blame at Montessori's feet for me having to sit through long division in 5th grade after having learned it four years previously in after-school daycare.

Anyway, I think its a great program. With the right kid, s/he will absorb information and skills like a sponge.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Oliver_Wendell_Ramone
.... Ruth Bader Ramone ...

So you're the one NY Doll (aka etc.) married?

[rufus leeking]

Originally posted by baltassoc

On the down side, I did have discipline problems throughout elementary school.

I'm a nuisance sock, sure, but this is honest advice. Being a "discipline problem" when we were growing up was treated differently than it is now.

Schools today don't spank, they recommend for meds. My community has the highest percentage of post-grad degrees in my state. My daughter's second grade had 6 boys in a class of 24 on meds. That is, the offspring of people who have 2 college degrees aren't capable of 2nd grade.

I'm willing to accept that meds help some kids, but some of the kids simply were goofy little boys. One kid was just an introverted nerdy guy who was identical to his dad, a neonatoligist. the boy over focused, and thus sometimes didn't hear the teacher. Bang. have some meds.

One of my favorite kids was a goof. This was in the day of Power Rangers. He didn't complete his K homework one day (color a map), the teacher asked him why. "Couldn't, there was a spell on me." I would be proud if my kid came up with that, but teach used it as evidence of need for drugs.

It is a screwed up situation, and it impacts boys hardest. If your kids are going into public school, I would recommend a pretty structured pre-school, at least for the last year.

[baltassoc]

Originally posted by rufus leeking
I'm a nuisance sock, sure, but this is honest advice. Being a "discipline problem" when we were growing up was treated differently than it is now.

Schools today don't spank, they recommend for meds.

This is an interesting and important point. However, I would point out that as of yet, it takes two (or three, really) to tango to the meds tune. While I am sure the Supremes are working on it, the in loco parentis doctrine that allows schools to test students for drugs without parental permission does not yet allow them to administer drugs without parental permission. I can not help but note the irony that our public schools spend the first six years trying to put kids on drugs and the last six years trying to keep them off them.*

I know what real ADHD looks like (younger sibling has it - for real. can't sit still for more than about 30 seconds, ever. and I mean ever. for years. being around him is like listening to the Beatles' Revolution No. 9, really loud, at double speed, all day.).

Ain't no way I'm putting my kids on meds if they don't need them. The schools can just deal. They somehow dealt with me (the ultimate solution to my discipline problems was discovered by my brilliant and beautiful 5th grade teacher [mmmmmm...Ms. Centner] - she sat me next to a special needs kid in the class and instructed me to tutor him. It shut us both up and eliminated what had been two different discipline problems. He was getting individual attention he needed and I wasn't bored. The world needs more Ms. Centners.).



*And if I hear one more news story about a kid getting expelled for giving another kid an albuteral inhaler to stop an asthma attack, I'm seriously going to go postal, but I digress.

[dtb]

Originally posted by baltassoc
I can not help but note the irony that our public schools spend the first six years trying to put kids on drugs and the last six years trying to keep them off them.*

I know what real ADHD looks like (younger sibling has it - for real. can't sit still for more than about 30 seconds, ever. and I mean ever. for years. being around him is like listening to the Beatles' Revolution No. 9, really loud, at double speed, all day.).

A child psychiatrist friend of mine told me that people with ADHD are at higher risk for drug abuse problems later in life if they DON'T receive chemical treatment when they are younger, in an (obviously misguided) attempt to self-medicate.

In my children's preschool, I don't think there is one boy in the whole school who isn't in some kind of "therapy", but not many are on medication -- maybe 2 or 3 in the whole school. But the point about the disparate impact on boys in an important (and for me, as the mother of only boys, upsetting) one.

[rufus leeking]

Originally posted by dtb
I don't think there is one boy in the whole school who isn't in some kind of "therapy", but not many are on medication -- maybe 2 or 3 in the whole school.

it doesn't kick in till K, or 1st or 2nd grade. as to both sides needing to agree, that is true. the one mom who fought the recommendation was a criminal defense lawyer who fought to keep her kid off. she was hit with the principal and teacher and psych all saying the kid needs it, and that the kid was screwing up the class. she finally brought in a children's rights lawyer and got them to back off a little. but the act is a series of conference about behavior, ultimately leading to the pills.

the doc who is nerdy and has a nerdy kid? I said to him what they're saying about John Doe is true of you Dr. Doe. You got through first grade! he opted to follow the medical advice of the psych.

It's just a sad thing that I didn't expect from elem. school, and I do try and warn parents to be on the lookout.

[baltassoc]

Originally posted by rufus leeking
she was hit with the principal and teacher and psych all saying the kid needs it, and that the kid was screwing up the class. she finally brought in a children's rights lawyer and got them to back off a little. but the act is a series of conference about behavior, ultimately leading to the pills.

I can't deny that there is a lot of pressure put on by the schools, which is too bad. As I mentioned above, sometimes the solution takes some creativity, but it often doesn't involve drugs. I hope that I am strong enough to overcome those pressures, if the arise.

I can totally believe a correlation between failing to medicate genuine ADHD and subsequent drug use. My brother was seriously depressed for a while, and got much better after being put on Ritilin (sp?). Although the Ritilin ultimately can cause depression too, as I understand it. But it focused him enough to almost act "normal," and that allowed him to relax enough to get out of the depression. Drugs would allow one to achieve the same effect, in that speed would allow you to focus and pot would allow you to let go. Having a fairly large inability to focus myself (hey, I came by it honestly), I can see the attraction of these kinds of chemical alterations.

There is something weird about depressed and hyperactive as a combination. Somewhat like a bi-polar disorder, but really fast.

The good news is he made it through, and now, as a young adult, he's off the meds and relatively stable. He still doesn't have a decent J O B, but he's living the dream.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by baltassoc
I can't deny that there is a lot of pressure put on by the schools, which is too bad. As I mentioned above, sometimes the solution takes some creativity, but it often doesn't involve drugs. I hope that I am strong enough to overcome those pressures, if the arise.

I can totally believe a correlation between failing to medicate genuine ADHD and subsequent drug use. My brother was seriously depressed for a while, and got much better after being put on Ritilin (sp?). Although the Ritilin ultimately can cause depression too, as I understand it. But it focused him enough to almost act "normal," and that allowed him to relax enough to get out of the depression. Drugs would allow one to achieve the same effect, in that speed would allow you to focus and pot would allow you to let go. Having a fairly large inability to focus myself (hey, I came by it honestly), I can see the attraction of these kinds of chemical alterations.

There is something weird about depressed and hyperactive as a combination. Somewhat like a bi-polar disorder, but really fast.

The good news is he made it through, and now, as a young adult, he's off the meds and relatively stable. He still doesn't have a decent J O B, but he's living the dream.

The best solution, unfortunately, is the one public schools are not ready to provide. That is a student/teacher ratio of about 6/1 or so, which results in an ability to keep up with the ADHD child. This will work for almost all but the most severe ADHD kids. (Though when ADHD kids become GA's, you need about a 1:1 partner:associate ratio for it to work, and as partners they need a 2:1 associate:partner ratio for it to work.)

[Oliver_Wendell_Ramone]

Originally posted by rufus leeking
I'm a nuisance sock, sure,

And a thread-hijacking bastard as well. Start your own meds/ADD discussion; I wanna talk about Montessori!

Oh, and thanks to all those who have offered their thoughts.

[rufus leeking]

Originally posted by Oliver_Wendell_Ramone
And a thread-hijacking bastard as well. Start your own meds/ADD discussion; I wanna talk about Montessori!

Oh, and thanks to all those who have offered their thoughts.

I did offer a thought about "unstructured" preschool and the potential downside of the discipline problems that others pointed to, perhaps the most important one offered. Shit happens quickly in the schools on these issues. But you know what, listen to the touchy feely benefits and talk about enabling creativity if that is what catches you.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by baltassoc
I can totally believe a correlation between failing to medicate genuine ADHD and subsequent drug use.

See also David Sedaris. He had brutally bad OCD (feeling like he would die if he didn't lick his neighbors' doorknobs on the walk home from school qualifies as brutally bad, IMHMO) that went away when he found cigarettes. Of course, that later led to such other mind-altering substances as meth and art school . . . .

While thankfully this is still a hypothetical question for me, I'd like to think that I would never be cowed into medicating a child today because some child psychologist says it might lead to drug abuse later. You know what the primary cause of drug abuse is? BAD PARENTING. BAD CHILDHOOD. When this generation of "medicate him" children reaches college, do you think they'll have any moral compunction against self-medication? They're being raised to think that their moods need to be chemically managed, and we think this will reduce drug use? Insane.

No offense to anyone whose kid is currently medicated after due deliberation.

[rufus leeking]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
[No offense to anyone whose kid is currently medicated after due deliberation.

point 2, you can't be too careful about talking about this stuff with other parents because you will likely not know all of the kids who are drugged. I was going off on this with one dad, whose younger kid I knew was ok. Daddy hit me with he is on rit. and his older son is on rit. and its a fucking wonder drug and probably I should be on it too.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
See also David Sedaris. He had brutally bad OCD (feeling like he would die if he didn't lick his neighbors' doorknobs on the walk home from school qualifies as brutally bad, IMHMO) that went away when he found cigarettes. Of course, that later led to such other mind-altering substances as meth and art school . . . .

While thankfully this is still a hypothetical question for me, I'd like to think that I would never be cowed into medicating a child today because some child psychologist says it might lead to drug abuse later. You know what the primary cause of drug abuse is? BAD PARENTING. BAD CHILDHOOD. When this generation of "medicate him" children reaches college, do you think they'll have any moral compunction against self-medication? They're being raised to think that their moods need to be chemically managed, and we think this will reduce drug use? Insane.

No offense to anyone whose kid is currently medicated after due deliberation.

I think drugs are terribly overused, and that the alternatives (more direct attention, care to diet, etc.) are woefully underused.

But there are some cases where the drugs are appropriate. A broadside against drugs can do some harm (as well as some good).

(And, on self-medication, I actually do think that self-medication helped me achieve a reasonable state of self-awareness; there are times when a few pieces of dried cactus can have a positive impact).