Waiting for Fitzgerald

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Oh -- you mean "wherever we think Stalin is" (i.e. drop it on Russia) -- pretty sure the average Russian would not have thanked us at the time -- or even in retrospect.

If the "average" Russian supported, empowered, and enabled Stalin, wouldn't that be okay?

Would YOU kill Hitler?

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
However, the results you cite come from the implementation of a dictatorship of the proletariat, lead by a Party that serves as the elite vanguard of the Revolution. S_A_M

I believe Karl Marx discusses this concept (dictatorship of the proletariat) in both the Manifesto and Das Kapital. Therefore it is an integral part of both Communism and Marxism. Am I wrong?

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Spanky
There is another country sandwiched between Pakistan and Iran, it is called Afghanistan. Maybe you have heard of it?

Technically, Afghanistan under the Taliban was hardly a totalitarian despotism -- Iraq under Sadddam was closer, but that would be a petty quibble (and I know Bilmore meant "a really bad government").

I'll give Bush Afghanistan (if we complete the follow-through), but the jury is still out on Iraq.

S_A_M

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man

It is simply not accurate to say that Leninism or Bolshevism is the same thing as Marxism or Communism.

S_A_M

I did not say that. But I still stand by my statement that most of the atrocities that Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Ortega and Castro did were logical extensions of Marxist philosophy.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by bilmore
Did youse guyz already have the Miers discussions?

Indeed, though not in great detail -- because so little is known of her.

Penske is in mourning and horrified by the betrayal.

S_A_M

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Well, that's good thinking.

Not sure the East Germans or Poles or Hungarians, etc. would have thanked us at the time -- or even in retrospect, with perfect knowledge of their possible alternate future.

Oh -- you mean "wherever we think Stalin is" (i.e. drop it on Russia) -- pretty sure the average Russian would not have thanked us at the time -- or even in retrospect.

S_A_M

I never said that we would drop Atomic bombs on Eastern Europe. We got the Japanese out of China without dropping Atomic bombs on China. Why couldn't we have gotten Russia out of the Ukraine, the Balkins and Eastern Europe using the same strategy?

We only killed 200,000 Japanese to pull the Japanese out of a great deal of Asia (except for the few parts we had reconqured - mainly the phillipines).

Killing 200,000 Russians to get the Russians out of Eastern and central europe and getting rid of the communist dictatorship would have been a bargain. After the war Stalin was probably killing 200,000 people a month (maybe even a week).

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Technically, Afghanistan under the Taliban was hardly a totalitarian despotism -- Iraq under Sadddam was closer, but that would be a petty quibble (and I know Bilmore meant "a really bad government").

I'll give Bush Afghanistan (if we complete the follow-through), but the jury is still out on Iraq.

S_A_M

You can't be serious. What is your definition of Totalitarian. Are you trying to tell me that the Taliban was not running pretty much every aspect of the Afghani's lives? The Taliban were probably in the top five of the most totalitarian regimes of all time. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Taliban....

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by bilmore
I'm hoping for Syria. I'm thinking we do one or two more, and Iran goes in its own popular uprising.

2!!!

Originally posted by bilmore

(ETA) - The big plan should really be to wipe out all of the ME hiding spots for the terrorists and the Islamacists, leaving them with the one last true enclave in which to hide.

Berkeley, I mean.

Paris?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Followed, notably, by this.



There are several responses to your Solomonic declaration about people's irritation with Penske, but it would require a rather extensive review of Penske's ouevre over the last number of weeks, which I wouldn't really wish on anyone.

Instead, you've provided us with a simpler, and more direct, response. If our debates over foreign policy are invariably reduced to simple homilies about knocking down bee's nests or Iraq being akin to a thug murdering Ty's family, then I'd submit that this is "debate" in a loose form, at best.

Instead of responding substantively to Bilmoure, you engage in the politics of personal destruction. The dimwits are devoid of substance. Move to France already where this lack of thought is appreciated.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Paris?

I don't think her vagina is really that big. 3 or 4 terrorists could be hiding there at any time. Max.

Elevating the discussion.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Gattigap
I think my biggest problem with your side of this discussion is your insistence that we're all just ivory tower idealists who clearly don't have a stake in the game, and that you, alone, possess the sense of how things really work in the world.

Truth is an absolute defence. And it hurts.

When a national dimwit party, led by an ex-Presidents who rapes underlings and lies about it, a Senator who is married to the rapist and lies about everything, a Senator who drives women to their death and lies about it and Klansmen who lie about their racism, and attempts to claim the moral highgound how do you expect the American people to take y'all seriously?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by bilmore
Did youse guyz already have the Miers discussions?

Yes, thumbs down, but we are praying to the babyjesuschristsuperstar for guidance and faith.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by baltassoc
Who gets credit for all of the Iron Curtain? Because whomever that is (Bush I? Reagan?) totally kicks W's ass on the totalitarian despot government ending department. That was like, what, 20?

Yes, Reagan. That is the first thing you ever posted that makes sense. Congrats.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
Yes, thumbs down, but we are praying to the babyjesuschristsuperstar for guidance and faith.

Um, what if she's praying, too, and that's her only qualification?

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Well, that's good thinking.

Not sure the East Germans or Poles or Hungarians, etc. would have thanked us at the time -- or even in retrospect, with perfect knowledge of their possible alternate future.

Oh -- you mean "wherever we think Stalin is" (i.e. drop it on Russia) -- pretty sure the average Russian would not have thanked us at the time -- or even in retrospect.

S_A_M

Stalin's regime may not have been as sinister as Hitlers, but it was a close second. But the Japanese Regime was not even close to being as bad as Germany and Russia. Don't get me wrong, they were really bad - rape of Nanking and all that. But even as bad as they were they did not hold a candle to Russia under Stalin and Hitler under Germany. Yet - people on this board find it so troubling that I would want to use the A bomb to put an end to Stalins reign of terror over half of Europe but think it was OK to use the Atomic bomb to take out Tojo's regime.

The - well they did not attack us line doesn't make sense to me either. They attacked other countries, and in addition, we didn't have to demand unconditional surrender. We didn't have to nuke Japan. We did it because we wanted to institute regime change for "world and US security". But wouldn't the US and the world had been better of if we let Tojo stay and took Stalin out?