Politics: Where we struggle to kneel in the muck.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Do you have a macro for this or something?

No. Each answer is handcrafted with pride.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by taxwonk
All he's really saying is the same thing Cheney was. Vote for Bush or we'll all die. Anything you say critical of us or our policies means more terrorists will come to blow us up and rape our women and children.

It's getting kind of sad, really.

Well, in fairness, both sides are equally shrill in different ways to overcome their lack of useful policies. The GOP deploys scare tactics and derides critical assessment of their aims/tactics as treason, thus destroying any chance to debate on the facts. The Dems decry the GOP's criticisms as the rantings of selfish people and simplistic views of those not as educated as the "brilliant" left. Both sides are throwing smoke bombs and ducking because they have no actual bullets to fight back well reasoned criticisms of their equally flwed policies.

Of course Lockhart's comments were entirely acceptable and, in fact, thought provoking. To call for his head over these comments is just as absurd as the left screaming for Rumsfeld's head over Abu Ghraib. Everybody's demanding 10 when they really need 8. Screaming for more than you need is an effective negitiating strategy, but unfortunately, by design, it always, without exception, precludes honest debate. Sadly, free market instincts have overtaken politics to the point where honest debate is shunned because to engage in it would expose the candidate to real risk. Lord knows, the last thing you want to do is actually examine the nuts and bolts of your policies before the public. So, we have two imbeciles who are hiding all their cards - if they actually have any - and throwing broad platitudes and challenges at one another. Platitudes and hyperbole are fine for people like me to use on this board, or for you to exhange with a used car saleman to get the best price, but I'm not certain their use, to the exclusion of real policy discussions, in campaigns is good for society. But fuck it... it ain't going to change, so do your best top see through the smoke.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Stevens isn't a citizen anymore, and when you're dealing with foreigners it makes a certain amount of sense to err on the side of caution. But don't pretend that Stevens necessarily brought it on himself. It's the collateral damage of the way this crowd is fighting the war on terror. They've made it much harder for foreigners to come to that country, which is often not a good thing.

Disagree that Stevens didn't bring it on himself. He did. However, I agree that it is not a good thing that it is harder for non-muslims foreigners to get into the US. It is, however, a good thing that it is harder for muslim foreigners to get into the US.

The problem isn't that our borders have been hardened. The problem is that we didn't harden them selectively to prevent muslims from entering. It is the muslims who are the threat to us.

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Whoa, we're talking 70s AM radio here. It ain't like Dylan or Neil Young decided to become monks in nepal or something...
[slams against Croce, Cat, Chapin, and Gordon]

Ah, sebby. Where to start?

OK, "Bad Bad Leroy Brown" was a huge hit for Croce, but it ain't the song that people who think he was an artiste have in mind when they sigh wistfully over his passing. Try "Time in a Bottle" or "Operator."

Personally, I prefer Cat's "Moonshadow" or "Father and Son" to "Peace Train." I have a fond spot for Cat in my heart because the hot hippie chick who worked at the local record store smiled at me when she rang up my purchase of "Teaser and the Firecat" lo these many years ago. "That's a really great albumn, man" she purred. "Aren't you Not Nick's little brother?" Not Nick gave me five bucks for that one.

You attack the poetry of Harry Chapin by picking on "Taxi"? You really are a moron, aren't you? Had you mentioned "Cats in the Cradle," I would have frothed at the mouth in rage at that song, and agreed with you -- forgetting that "Taxi" is pure genius. "She was going to be an actress, and I was going to learn to fly."

I miss Greedon Lightfoot. He was my favorite sock.

[SlaveNoMore]

sebastian_dangerfield
You get me so hot when you're all patriotic... I've got the biggest tent in my trousers.

I don't think either side has this in mind when they talk about a "Big Tent".

Then again, what the hell do I know.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Gattigap
In any event, beyond the history and travel schedules, the content of the speech left some confused about the degree of collaboration between the Bush camp and Allawi tent. For example, The Daily Show last night ran the "We're better off, you're better off, and the world is better off without SH" quote from Allawi's speech, then ran a dozen identical quotes from GWB on the campaign trail, and expressed amazement that the speeches seemed to be written by the same people!

Sort of like Neal Kinnock and Joe Biden?

[LessinSF]

Originally posted by Not Bob
Cat Stevens discussion

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
2) When does any foreign leader in this country get to schedule their own TV appearances? Seriously, I'd like to know.

Well, bin Laden seems to get on radio and TV whenever he feels like it, but that's probably not an answer you were looking for.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Me
Disagree that Stevens didn't bring it on himself. He did.

What group did he give money to? What did they do with it? What did he know ex ante?

[SlaveNoMore]

Shape Shifter
Would you be similarly indignant if he criticized Chirac?

Do we have armed forces in France? Are terrorists questioning Chirac's legitimacy and trying to kill him? If yes to both, then I'm indignant.

[SlaveNoMore]

Sidd Finch
Well, bin Laden seems to get on radio and TV whenever he feels like it, but that's probably not an answer you were looking for.

Actually, he hasn't been heard from - either TV or radio - in close to a year.

We may not have found his body yet, but it appears we've taken out his booking agent.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Not Me
This is what I mean about moderate muslim being an oxymoron. How can anyone be a moderate who follows the koran?

Presumably by interpreting the Koran differently than the Ayatollah or Ca would.

I know the bible says outrageous things in the old testament in particular. The new testament corrected at least some of the violence taught and advocated in the old testament.

Yeah, there was no christian violence after the new testament was written. That whole Crusades thing aside. And the Thirty Years War. And the Spanish Inquisition (I bet no one was expecting that).

Practicing muslms by and large don't do that with the koran. Their religion doesn't allow for it. This is why this religion has inflicted so much harm on the world, especially to women.

How many practicing muslims have you known? Seriously. I've known plenty, and even named my son after one. Those I've befriended had a much better perspective on the world than, say, Jerry Falwell.

[Replaced_Texan]

The People For the American Way Foundation has put together a coalition for monitoring polling places in several states, and they're specifically looking for lawyers and law students and people who speak Spanish. If you're interested in volunteering, check out http://www.electionprotectionvolunte...ion/index.cfm. They will be having conference call training for lawyers on October 2 and October 6.

ET link to FAQ question about what they're looking for lawyers to do.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
As I understand the law, you can end up on a watch list for giving money to a charitable group which is suspected of misusing funds, even if the government can't prove it and/or you had no idea. So the better analogy is one where Cobourn gives money to an apparently legitimate anti-abortion group which is suspected of giving other aid on the side to Eric Rudolph (e.g.).* As applied to citizens, the First Amendment implications ought to be clear enough (freedom to associate, anyone?). If Stevens (or whatever his name is) is anti-violence in his public statement, and gave money to one of these groups, it seems at least as likely to me that he was defrauded by the group (or, more innocuously, that they used his money for whatever they said they would use it for and used other money for something else) than that he was saying one thing publicly and doing another thing with his money.

Stevens isn't a citizen anymore, and when you're dealing with foreigners it makes a certain amount of sense to err on the side of caution. But don't pretend that Stevens necessarily brought it on himself. It's the collateral damage of the way this crowd is fighting the war on terror. They've made it much harder for foreigners to come to that country, which is often not a good thing.

* We've had very, very little luck in getting to the bottom of the finances behind the terrorists and 9/11, so it would be a mistake to assume that the government has really good dirt on the terrorists involved.

Ty, if you are going to lecture me then you ought to at least firm up the point that you made, and on which we disagreed. I didn't say the FBI had finally established some brilliant method of determining who was funding terrorists. I said that Cat was deported, I believed, because of his donations to charities that support (yes, I should have said "are believed to support") terrorists, and not because of his position on Rushdie, as you suggested.

Nothing you say suggests that he was barred because of what he said about the fatwa against Rushdie. You agree that it was because of donations. You (appropriately) question whether that is too broad a net, but that's different than saying it was because of what he said about Rushdie.

Plus, he did bring it on himself. Anyone who could walk away from that kind of talent should be beaten with sticks. I bet he's not even allowed to watch Harold & Maude, for god's sake.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch

How many practicing muslims have you known? Seriously. I've known plenty, and even named my son after one.

Mohammed Finch?

Shit, Sidd. I've told you to get off of this hippy-dippy crap, and into more traditional names. Couldn't you have named the kid Fred, or John, or something?