A Forum for Grinches and Ho-Ho-Hoes

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Yes, and Clinton's NK policy would have worked if Bush just had the brains to continue it.

If we had only given it more nuclear technology it would not have used it?

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I see nothing on that memo that indicates it was in draft form, and I see that Clarke put his initials by his name on the "FROM:" line, indicating that he was sending it.

He (or someone else) made handwritten comments on it - egro draft form. A final document usually does not contain hand written comments. I'm not saying it's definitive, but if that doesn't at least raise the question in your mind, I can't help you.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
You an SS need to learn how to change a point- you have a good memo for a starting point, but you need to go to Republican Party events- then listen - then pay attention to Karl Rove - maybe then you will learn how to make up distractions in an incoherent fashion so that the other's side's point is forgetten.

Hank, back to the point -- is your story that Condi, as National Security Advisor, was unaware that al-Qai'ida posed a threat prior to 9/11?


Isn't the right answer to this memo that of course we knew those things, whether we got the memo or not, and it was all a question of setting priorities based on the best available information, and, sorry guys, we screwed up, just as many had before us?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by sgtclub
He (or someone else) made handwritten comments on it - egro draft form. A final document usually does not contain hand written comments. I'm not saying it's definitive, but if that doesn't at least raise the question in your mind, I can't help you.

He changed the name to reflect who asked him for it before sending it on. Back when I worked in politics, we hand changed names all the time as something was being bumped up the line. There's a desire to keep things moving and less concern about form than in the average Biglaw firm.

Could it be a draft? Yes. But it would be more likely if he crossed out his signature and sent it back - at least that was the way I saw most people operating.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Hank, back to the point -- is your story that Condi, as National Security Advisor, was unaware that al-Qai'ida posed a threat prior to 9/11?


Isn't the right answer to this memo that of course we knew those things, whether we got the memo or not, and it was all a question of setting priorities based on the best available information, and, sorry guys, we screwed up, just as many had before us?

What you just said has been my position on this Forum from the start- with the proviso (sp?) that given the failure by Billy to take action AFTER prior attacks Bush had more limited options than Billy did- still what you said.

The other thing that needs to play into all of this is some understanding of how many memos she got per week.

Like the report from 95 about planes flying into buildings- okay that was a good prediction- but where they on 20 pages of paper in 2000 boxes of reports? I just don't see what any of this shows w/o perspective of how many scary reports come out per week.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Yes, and Clinton's NK policy would have worked if Bush just had the brains to continue it.

Don't be such a moron. If you can't defend the stupid things you say about Clinton's Al Qaeda policy, just walk away, instead of saying stupid things about North Korea.

On North Korea, Clinton got North Korea to shut down its nuclear program for a while, in the hopes that the country would collapse. It achieved what it was aimed to do, which was buy time. As you seem to understand only when we talk about Bush's North Korea policy, there are no particularly good options on NK. At least Clinton got the North Koreans to shut down the worst of their weapons programs for a while. Bush doesn't even have that to show for himself.

And don't bother to engage on this shit unless you're willing to check out the difference between NK's uranium and plutonium programs.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by sgtclub
He (or someone else) made handwritten comments on it - egro draft form. A final document usually does not contain hand written comments. I'm not saying it's definitive, but if that doesn't at least raise the question in your mind, I can't help you.

FWIW, I get orginal documents routed to me all the time with handwritten comments on them. The president of my (very large) institution likes to write instructions on original documents, routing the document to whoever he thinks is best to handle the problem.

I can pull out dozens of policy documents that have marks all over them.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
What you just said has been my position on this Forum from the start- with the proviso (sp?) that given the failure by Billy to take action AFTER prior attacks Bush had more limited options than Billy did- still what you said.

The other thing that needs to play into all of this is some understanding of how many memos she got per week.

Like the report from 95 about planes flying into buildings- okay that was a good prediction- but where they on 20 pages of paper in 2000 boxes of reports? I just don't see what any of this shows w/o perspective of how many scary reports come out per week.

All due respect if this was and is your position, but didn't you get the memo that says Bush never says I'm sorry?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
FWIW, I get orginal documents routed to me all the time with handwritten comments on them. The president of my institution likes to write instructions on original documents, routing the document to whoever he thinks is best to handle the problem.

I can pull out dozens of policy documents that have marks all over them.

My favorite handwritten comment was in a hiring memo at my old firm. The recruiting coordinator put together a memo summarizing pending applications for the summer program, and the head of the Committee, before forwarding on the memo to the committee members, inscribed mouse ears next to those candidates he didn't think we should waste any more time on.

Then he signed it, copied it up, and distributed it.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Don't be such a moron. If you can't defend the stupid things you say about Clinton's Al Qaeda policy, just walk away, instead of saying stupid things about North Korea.

On North Korea, Clinton got North Korea to shut down its nuclear program for a while, in the hopes that the country would collapse. It achieved what it was aimed to do, which was buy time. As you seem to understand only when we talk about Bush's North Korea policy, there are no particularly good options on NK. At least Clinton got the North Koreans to shut down the worst of their weapons programs for a while. Bush doesn't even have that to show for himself.

And don't bother to engage on this shit unless you're willing to check out the difference between NK's uranium and plutonium programs.

I don't want to engage in any of this, because you are not open minded. I think neither Clinton nor Bush could have predicted or prevented 9/11. I don't think Clinton's NK policy was nefarious, but I do think it placed way too much trust in NK. Absent war, under either president, there was no way to stop NK from getting the weapons, but that being the case, I would rather they get them without our support than with it.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
My favorite handwritten comment was in a hiring memo at my old firm. The recruiting coordinator put together a memo summarizing pending applications for the summer program, and the head of the Committee, before forwarding on the memo to the committee members, inscribed mouse ears next to those candidates he didn't think we should waste any more time on.

Then he signed it, copied it up, and distributed it.

And so Ty ended up in Cali?

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
FWIW, I get orginal documents routed to me all the time with handwritten comments on them. The president of my (very large) institution likes to write instructions on original documents, routing the document to whoever he thinks is best to handle the problem.

I can pull out dozens of policy documents that have marks all over them.

Yes, that makes sense. However, these appear to me to be comments on the author wants implemented. They are not in the form of "Hey RT, read this memo and handle."

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by sgtclub
You really are an idiot.
When was the last time you delivered a memo with handwritten comments?

You really need to pay better attention to detail.

(a) Why do you assume that those notations indicate a draft? First, there are only a few, none in the text, and who says thay all were made by the author? Next, look at the type of notations. Clarke's initials next to his typed name would tend to be an indicator that this was a final he had reviewed and approved.

(b) Why do you fight about this, or think it would add anything new? In case you missed it, no one disputes anymore that Clarke and his peers were sounding alarms about al Qaeda prior to the 9/11 attacks, and briefed the Bush team during the transition and immediately afterwards. The meetings and briefings continued (at the Deputies level -- which pissed Clarke off) for the next nine months.

As Hank would say, "There's nothing new here, is there?"

Just accept that the Bush adminstration's handling of al Qaeda, 9/11 and Iraq will continue to be the favorite whipping boys for the left -- much like anything having to do with Bill, Hillary, and Ted Kennedy are for the right.

S_A_M

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
And so Ty ended up in Cali?

Yes, we hired him for our San Fran office.

Hank, I've said I'm sorry before. If you'd just gotten decent grades at Podunk U, it might have been different.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Isn't the right answer to this memo that of course we knew those things, whether we got the memo or not, and it was all a question of setting priorities based on the best available information, and, sorry guys, we screwed up, just as many had before us?

No. Hank might say that, but Bush never would. He and his administration are apparently either incapable of screwing up or incapable of acknowledging it.

[When you operate by divine revelation, such an admission would raise troubling theological issues. ]

S_A_M