A Forum for Grinches and Ho-Ho-Hoes

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Eason Jordan, don't let the door hit you in the ass.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
It hasn't happened yet but we're discussing naked oil-wrestling. You want to be my training partner?

[confidential to club]No, I'm not serious, but work with me on this -- and pick your desired "training partner" too.[/confidential to club]

[confidential to sidd]there are no other women on this board and I'm not gay NTTAWWT[confidential to Sidd]

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Richard Clarke says in his book that the Administration could have done more, and in retrospect that seems clear. But they were trying, which is more than one can say for Bush's first nine months. They demoted Clarke and didn't listen to him, and nothing happened.

The sloppy "Clinton did it too" defense of Bush is intellectually lazy and bankrupt. Particulary when it comes from those who complained when Clinton launched cruise missiles at AQ in Sudan and Afghanistan that he was just diverting attention from their attacks on him.

Now, you said before that it wouldn't have made a difference. And maybe that's right.

Note to Ty - there are plenty of other books on the topic from authors that are not disgruntled. I'm not saying Clarke's work doesn't raise legitimate points, but it is not the end all be all.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Any number of reasons -- you decide to change instructors, you move and have to come up through the ranks in a different school/style, or you decide to learn a new style or system. For me it was a combination of these factors.

Fuck! I've never admitted I'm wrong before- but here you go.

5'2" tops.

5' 4"? what was i thinking?- the guy threatened to have Thurgreed come beat me up when i made fun of him- 5' 2" tops and he's not dealing with it as well as the average 5' 2" guy/

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Note to Ty - there are plenty of other books on the topic from authors that are not disgruntled. I'm not saying Clarke's work doesn't raise legitimate points, but it is not the end all be all.

Have you read any of them? Do they suggest that the Bush was doing all sorts of valuable things that Clarke hasn't told us about before 9/11? Because that would really be news.

What's the point of trashing Clarke if you don't know of anything wrong with his account?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
the guy threatened to have Thurgreed come beat me up

Huh?

Hank, I understand that you may be unable to stop dreaming about me, but I'd prefer if you'd keep it to yourself. The whole idea gives me the willies.


Detroit-boy thinks I'm short. My world is drawing to an end. Next he'll write me a research memo.

[Skeks in the city]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Out of curiousity, why do[es Sidd] need 2 black belts. Does the first make [him] a bad enough ass?

He switched video games.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Huh?

Hank, I understand that you may be unable to stop dreaming about me, but I'd prefer if you'd keep it to yourself. The whole idea gives me the willies.


Detroit-boy thinks I'm short. My world is drawing to an end. Next he'll write me a research memo.

Poll:

Why does Sid constantly downgrade Detroit:

a) we have more black people than SF-

or

b) we have more Arab people than SF-

If someone has an alternative theory based upon Sid not being racist, you really will need to provide some support-

and before he says it's based upon me, let me just make the point that anyone with over 4000 posts is obviously a failure, and not someone upon which to judge a city's worth.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Note to Ty - there are plenty of other books on the topic from authors that are not disgruntled. I'm not saying Clarke's work doesn't raise legitimate points, but it is not the end all be all.

Clarke's book has been the subject of widespread discussion. From the Party of True Believers, I've only heard the "but he's disgruntled" criticism. I've seen none disputing his factual account of events.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Clarke's book has been the subject of widespread discussion. From the Party of True Believers, I've only heard the "but he's disgruntled" criticism. I've seen none disputing his factual account of events.

Here's what I keep getting stuck on: He worked for Clinton too. Now, did he come up with all these dire concerns only after Bush was elected? Or was he equally ineffective in convincing Clinton to do something about al Qaeda? And what of Clinton? Did he have some grand plan that got terminated on Jan. 21, because Bush wasn't on with the plan? And, if so, why? Because Clarke didn't convince anyone of the need to carry forward a sensible anti-terrorism program?

Did the Bush admin. make some errors? In hindsight, yes. But what admin. accomplishes much of anything in the first 9 mos.? They set the groundwork, but actually to acheive something? The only thing Clinton achieved was blowing up his own health care initiative.

So, what does this say about Clarke? That he was sick and tired of not getting listened to, and finally can say "I told you so, I told you so."

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Here's what I keep getting stuck on: He worked for Clinton too. Now, did he come up with all these dire concerns only after Bush was elected? Or was he equally ineffective in convincing Clinton to do something about al Qaeda? And what of Clinton? Did he have some grand plan that got terminated on Jan. 21, because Bush wasn't on with the plan? And, if so, why? Because Clarke didn't convince anyone of the need to carry forward a sensible anti-terrorism program?

Did the Bush admin. make some errors? In hindsight, yes. But what admin. accomplishes much of anything in the first 9 mos.? They set the groundwork, but actually to acheive something? The only thing Clinton achieved was blowing up his own health care initiative.

So, what does this say about Clarke? That he was sick and tired of not getting listened to, and finally can say "I told you so, I told you so."

These are good questions, but query whether anyone perceived a need to do something about Al Qaeda before the Kenya and Tanzania embassy bombings, at least on the scale that you suggest. And then came the Cole bombing, shortly before Bush took office. Our understanding of the threat has changed over time.

It's not a bad book. You might like it.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
These are good questions, but query whether anyone perceived a need to do something about Al Qaeda before the Kenya and Tanzania embassy bombings, at least on the scale that you suggest.

Clinton sent cruise missiles at Bin Laden in, what, 1998? So, there were at least a couple of years before he was done that he perceived a significant threat worthy of missiles. I just don't buy that on Jan. 25, 2001, al Qaeda suddenly became a more significant concern.

Credit bin Laden with this: he picked a particularly good time to strike-a presidential interregnum. Good thing Kerry wasn't elected, I suppose.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Clinton sent cruise missiles at Bin Laden in, what, 1998? So, there were at least a couple of years before he was done that he perceived a significant threat worthy of missiles. I just don't buy that on Jan. 25, 2001, al Qaeda suddenly became a more significant concern.

Ty would say that clinton did lots- but what I asked Friday and you asked yesterday is this- What programs/inititives started by Clinton were stopped by bush- Ty didn't notice the question I guess. One post late last week alleges several amorphous things- but if clinton had something going that was killed by Bush we would have heard of that, right?

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Ty would say that clinton did lots- but what I asked Friday and you asked yesterday is this- What programs/inititives started by Clinton were stopped by bush- Ty didn't notice the question I guess. One post late last week alleges several amorphous things- but if clinton had something going that was killed by Bush we would have heard of that, right?

Well, I assume Bush stopped Clinton's program to have the intelligence agencies cooperate and share information effectively.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
I just don't buy that on Jan. 25, 2001, al Qaeda suddenly became a more significant concern.

When we went through a reorganization two years ago, I wrote quite a few memos that said "you are new to this position and may not have a complete understanding of what I do. These are the most important things that you, my new boss, should know about." A colleague who is leaving for greener pastures later on this month is composing a memo that says "these are the issues that are outstanding, my reccomendations on how to handle them, and don't blame me if they're not adequately addressed." My impression of the Clarke memo is that it's a combo of the two versions.