A Forum for Grinches and Ho-Ho-Hoes

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Bad news, RT -- apparently DeLay is quite funny.

Of course. He's a Texan. We all have our charm. Doesn't mean he's not a motherfucking asshole.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
What good would Predator flyovers do?

Good question, Hank. Wow -- it's like you've actually educated yourself on this stuff, and learned more than Clarke. If Clarke had just had you around in early 2001 to bounce ideas off you, I'm sure the country would have been better off.

There had been several attacks under Clinton. We essentially failed to respond in any meaningful, or at least arrarent way against the Taliban even though the last 3 were planned from Afghansitan.

It's stuff like this that shows you can't be bothered to learn or remember what happened. Which puzzles me, because I think this stuff is fascinating -- I read these books because it's important and current stuff, not because I'm planning to come here and post about how you don't get it. That's just a fortunate collateral benefit, like you and your bachelor's degree in science.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Good question, Hank. Wow -- it's like you've actually educated yourself on this stuff, and learned more than Clarke. If Clarke had just had you around in early 2001 to bounce ideas off you, I'm sure the country would have been better off.

It's stuff like this that shows you can't be bothered to learn or remember what happened. Which puzzles me, because I think this stuff is fascinating -- I read these books because it's important and current stuff, not because I'm planning to come here and post about how you don't get it. That's just a fortunate collateral benefit, like you and your bachelor's degree in science.

Ummm, dickhead- if you think something is an important fact you need to explain why its important.

Like remember when i took on "the I understand and fully appreciate evolution" crowd- then pretty soon by bringing up facts i got some of them to show they were just accepting it on faith. That is how one uses facts, and then inferences to win an argument.

You have bothered to read the book- good for you! You say the book shows that Clinton did more than Bush, and I ask what? - you say "Clarke decided on 1/25/01 to start up Predator filghts and they wouldn't let him!" Beyond the obvious question of whether the flights might have helped a year or two earlier is a more basic question. Al Queda is a mobile group. We weren't in Afghanistan and had not made any decision to go in. The question "Drone flights are valuable because?" seems a legit question, especially because it is the basic support for your argument that Bush didn't do anything. We'd get pictures, okay but what would we do with them?

But more to the point, in the Government policies once started stay in place until stopped. So if clinton had great things grinding away and Bush didn't stop them (listen now dimwit)- THEY WOULD STILL HAVE BEEN GOING ON. AND IF BUSH HAD STOPPED THEM THERE WOULD BE PAPER TO SHOW IT.

It sounds like the big change was people didn't sit and listen to Clarke talk about things he wanted to do but had never been allowed to do- is your point Clinton listened before deciding to ignore him? That you try and support otherwise and can only talk about drone flights actually shows maybe I'm right, right?

Of course more should have been done- but drone photos from an Afghan desert 3/01 wouldn't have done much to stop 9/11. Worrying about Al Queda wouldn't have stopped 9/11. doing some things might have- but most of those things would have needed to be done in 97 or 98.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Ummm, dickhead- if you think something is an important fact you need to explain why its important.

As a matter of pure laziness, I understand the appeal of arguing that Clinton didn't do anything, on the ground that you're unfamiliar with anything he did, and then answer "so?" to any post that tells you what he did. We all know, thanks to Donald Rumsfeld, that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence, but your style of argument here is to make us work hard to show the difference. Apparently you're waiting for us to get bored or tired of reminding you of recent history.

Use that brain of yours. Try to figure out why they'd want Predators over Afghanistan. I'll give you one reason. They were trying to kill Osama bin Laden, but lacked good information about where he was. The Predators could help to fill this gap.

Like remember when i took on "the I understand and fully appreciate evolution" crowd- then pretty soon by bringing up facts i got some of them to show they were just accepting it on faith. That is how one uses facts, and then inferences to win an argument.

Yes, but here you're using neither using facts nor inferences. You're playing dumb.

You have bothered to read the book- good for you! You say the book shows that Clinton did more than Bush, and I ask what? - you say "Clarke decided on 1/25/01 to start up Predator filghts and they wouldn't let him!"

That's not what I said, which brings us to another irritating facet of your mode of argument on this subject: Not content merely to play dumb, you twist things.

Beyond the obvious question of whether the flights might have helped a year or two earlier is a more basic question.

That is a basic question. My recollection of the book is that there is a basic answer to it about the technological capabilities of the drones, which were under development and scarce in numbers, but I don't have the book in my office, so I can't go look just now.

Al Queda is a mobile group. We weren't in Afghanistan and had not made any decision to go in. The question "Drone flights are valuable because?" seems a legit question, especially because it is the basic support for your argument that Bush didn't do anything. We'd get pictures, okay but what would we do with them?

Launch cruise missiles from the Navy submarine stationed off Pakistan. Or, if Clarke had his way and got senior support, send in ground forces (Green Berets, Delta Force, Rangers, etc.), though the military resisted these steps, as they later would under Bush.

But more to the point, in the Government policies once started stay in place until stopped. So if clinton had great things grinding away and Bush didn't stop them (listen now dimwit)- THEY WOULD STILL HAVE BEEN GOING ON.

No, they didn't. The counterterrorism effort involved several agencies, each of which had their own agenda and interests. Clarke had few people working directly for him -- his job was to make sure that others devoted resources and efforts to fighting Al Qaeda. When he didn't get the support he need from the NSA, progress stopped.

Nice rhetorical touch with the all-caps, though.

It sounds like the big change was people didn't sit and listen to Clarke talk about things he wanted to do but had never been allowed to do.

If it sounds that way to you, you aren't listening very hard.

Of course more should have been done- but drone photos from an Afghan desert 3/01 wouldn't have done much to stop 9/11. Worrying about Al Queda wouldn't have stopped 9/11. doing some things might have- but most of those things would have needed to be done in 97 or 98.

I'm not sure I agree that there's nothing we could have done to stop 9/11, but that's not what we were talking about in any event. And if you think the things that Clarke was proposing "needed to be done in 1997 or 1998," you are just showing, again, that you haven't bothered to look at this history much.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
As a matter of pure laziness, I understand the appeal of arguing that Clinton didn't do anything, on the ground that you're unfamiliar with anything he did, and then answer "so?" to any post that tells you what he did.

I keep asking you what he did- and you don't say anything other than clarke said he did stuff. But I quit- you win.


As to drones, you believe they weren't ready until 1/01 but then were ready and Bush neglected to get them into use. Okay- you've read the book I have to believe you. We should have been flying these things all over the countryside to try and find a tall guy, and then order Cruise missile strikes.

By the way- if you see Farenhype it shows when we actually did have a legit shot at Bin Ladin mid-90's. He was confirmed in a Kandahar hotel for 5 days- Clinton passed.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Poll:

Why does Sid constantly downgrade Detroit:

a) we have more black people than SF-

or

b) we have more Arab people than SF-

If someone has an alternative theory based upon Sid not being racist, you really will need to provide some support-

Because it's a vibrant center of culture, learning, and commerce.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I keep asking you what he did- and you don't say anything other than clarke said he did stuff.

You'd prefer that Ty tell you about the stuff he witnessed personally?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Because it's a vibrant center of culture, learning, and commerce.

Not culture, but U of M is one of the best schools- isn't it?

And commerce- you're right it is. Oakland County is the second richest county in the country. We make most of the single most expensive consumer item. Or do you just mean the city proper?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
You'd prefer that Ty tell you about the stuff he witnessed personally?

So you want me to take it on faith?

Clinton did things that were positive because Mr. Clarke said he did- Amen!

Quick question-How did single celled animals develop organ systems through natural selection?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Not culture, but U of M is one of the best schools- isn't it?

And commerce- you're right it is. Oakland County is the second richest county in the country. We make most of the single most expensive consumer item. Or do you just mean the city proper?

You are absolutely right. I am painfully jealous of Detroit and the people who live there, not to mention the droves who have left. It is America's premier city.

But keep telling me it's because I hate Arabs. Coming from you, Hank, that's almost as strong an accusation as being told that I'm short.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
So you want me to take it on faith?

Clinton did things that were positive because Mr. Clarke said he did- Amen!

So if Ty points to a number of books and sources, from the former head of counterterrorism to the 9/11 commission, your response is those sources are unreliable.

And Condi didn't get the memo because her name is written on it in ink.

Quick question-How did single celled animals develop organ systems through natural selection?

Dunno. When was the Noahnic flood, and did you personally witness it?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
So if Ty points to a number of books and sources, from the former head of counterterrorism to the 9/11 commission, your response is those sources are unreliable.

So Ty is the proof- okay Ty says its true so its true- how soon after getting that swirly in gym class did you sign up for your first karate lessons?

When was the Noahnic flood, and did you personally witness it?

I never said I believe in any of that- and I agree with you that those who do can only rely upon faith. My point with evolution is that much of it is no more than a belief based only on faith- that's what adder proved with his "I can imagine a reason"- so don't be smug- science is just one of your gods- but now with the above i see your most devine entity is Ty- which is pretty fucking amazing, since he is mainly a series of cobbled together blog cites. Did Ty promise you virgins in paradise for trying to argue with me?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

(1) If I say it's true, so it's true. I'm down with that. Someone tell bilmore.

(2) Evolution is more than a belief based only on faith.

(2a) I say so.

(2b) Even though Adder might think otherwise.

(3) I am divine.

(4) I am so much more than a series of cobbled-together blog sites.

Thank you for allowing me to clear the record.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
(3) I am divine.

I have no proof of this assertion, but I can imagine reasons how it could prove true.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop

(3) I am divine.

I loved your work in John Waters' films. My condolences on your untimely death.