Still Hating America.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Adder
Why are they getting back in the future and you aren't?

But more importantly, this was not the question. Regardless of what either of you may get back in the long run, the fact remains that today, social security takes money from poor and middle class working people and gives it to (among others) rich retirees. The ponzi scheme is set up that way.

I presume the rich people getting SS today paid in when they were working. What you're saying is rich people should pay the tax but not get anything back later. That's what you an NB mean would need to occur for SS not to be "taking money from the poor to give the rich?"

Am I the only one who sees this as pointing to the lack of any reason to go on here?

[LessinSF]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
What business has it bailed out, though?

As crappy has mandatory government insurance is, it's better that people pay for it in advance than get it for free later. (see National Flood Insurance Program)

Not sure about the FDIC, but many policyholders have been covered when their insurer went insolvent.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Sebby, if you're still out there, tomorrow when you sober up, ask yourself if you honestly believe that if the federal government got less tax revenue from one source, it would simply stop spending as much, or it wouldjust look for another source of funds? I mean, really, Seb.

As a matter of fact, it didn't. The money you speak of - these ill gotten capital gains by the nefarious non-working rich - have been taxed already. You focus on the 15% tax as though its the only one this money's ever been subjected to.

Why do you think the fucking capital gains rate is low? The unspoken underpinning for the lower rate is the fact that it's appalling to tax the same money twice at 28-36%. People would freak out. If there were any legitimate argument for gearing that rate up, the argument would be that it should be the same rate at which salary is taxed. But not even the craziest clueless Democrat would make that argument because even they realize that the capital gains tax walks the line of unfair, even at its present lowly rate. Of course, they'll bullshit arounf that by saying they're really in favor of a lower cap gains rate because it helps build nbest eggs for the retiring. Bullshit.

If you're suggesting cap gains ought to be raised to meet the taxes the "working man" pays on his salary, or that the cap gains rate is a gift to the rich, you're as unreasonable as I was last nite.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
No. You don't get it.

At the outset, I asked Ty to show me an example of the govt taking one dollar from a poor person - an actual dollar that poor person had - and giving it to a rich person. He couldn't.

I'm neither rich nor poor, but the government takes money from me and gives it to a shitload of people who aren't me, both rich and poor.

This may possibly be one of the stupidest arguments in the history of the PB.

Which I think is saying a lot.

[LessinSF]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Steve Forbes makes $100 in dividends; he pays $15 in tax.

You earn $100 in salary; you pay $36 in tax.

Your tax is $36 because the G can't afford to tax everybody at a 15% rate. Do you really not get it?

Are you suggesting that those who pay a 36% or 39% rate are poor?

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
This may possibly be one of the stupidest arguments in the history of the PB.

Which I think is saying a lot.

And I am so proud that it proceeded under my re: line.

Value. Added.

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Social security- I've maxed out every year for a very long time. Are you saying I'll ever get that back- or even half of it back- because i don't think i will. Are you saying I'll get 100K in SS? how is SS me taking money from poor people? They pay less than I do and get back about what I'll get back, won't they?

Nope. Unlike the doomsayers, I think that Social Security will be around in roughly the same form when you and I retire.

SS isn't you or me taking money from poor (and Not Poor) people. It is current retirees being paid their benefits by current taxpayers. Ivan the dishwasher is paying for my aunt to water her lawn. And maxed-out Hank's money is paying survivor benefits to the widow of a retired actuary in Duluth.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Are you saying I accuse in a not nice way, or I accuse you of arguing in a not nice way? You said before people pay you for your advocacy, right, does someone more senior review the briefs?

Translation: My name is Hank, and I still have nothing of substance to say. Maybe if I insult someone, people won't notice.

[Adder]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I presume the rich people getting SS today paid in when they were working. What you're saying is rich people should pay the tax but not get anything back later.

That isn't what I am saying in offering social security as a direct example of taking one dollar from the poor to give it to the rich (today), but yes, if social security is going to continue to be a wealth transfer paid out of current tax revenues (i.e. not privatized in some way), then I do believe that rich people should pay the tax and not get anything back later.

It is a tax and pretending that it is something else is simply windowdressing.

That's what you an NB mean would need to occur for SS not to be "taking money from the poor to give the rich?"

Nope, it was offered in the purely literal sense in response to the question. You should not assume that I meant that social security was bad or unjust as it stands.

Of course, my raising it was meant to be a bit facetious, but obvious that is completely lost in explaining it.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Adder
Why are they getting back in the future and you aren't?

But more importantly, this was not the question. Regardless of what either of you may get back in the long run, the fact remains that today, social security takes money from poor and middle class working people and gives it to (among others) rich retirees. The ponzi scheme is set up that way.

Really? Hmmmm. So, in what line item do you place the money the rich paid into the SS system during their lives?

I've maxed it for a long time. Is that money just a gift to someone? Something that if I received back when I was old I would be somehow stealing from the poor?

BTW, I don't expect to get it back and really don't care. I just think its amusing when someone tells me its not mine, and that I shouldn't be entitled to what would never have existed but for my efforts.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
As a matter of fact, it didn't. The money you speak of - these ill gotten capital gains by the nefarious non-working rich - have been taxed already. You focus on the 15% tax as though its the only one this money's ever been subjected to.

Why do you think the fucking capital gains rate is low? The unspoken underpinning for the lower rate is the fact that it's appalling to tax the same money twice at 28-36%. People would freak out. If there were any legitimate argument for gearing that rate up, the argument would be that it should be the same rate at which salary is taxed. But not even the craziest clueless Democrat would make that argument because even they realize that the capital gains tax walks the line of unfair, even at its present lowly rate. Of course, they'll bullshit arounf that by saying they're really in favor of a lower cap gains rate because it helps build nbest eggs for the retiring. Bullshit.

If you're suggesting cap gains ought to be raised to meet the taxes the "working man" pays on his salary, or that the cap gains rate is a gift to the rich, you're as unreasonable as I was last nite.

Sit down with a tax person who still has the patience to explain this to you, yet again, and ask them to refresh your vodka-soaked memory on something called "basis." That's the part of the capital investment that's already been taxed.

Then, if you're really in a lucid moment, you can ask em how to justify taxing the carried interest the promoters of private equity, venture capital, and hedge fund managers as capital gains. That's money they never had before, and it's really just the return on their labor, but it's taxed at 15%.

Unfair? Right.

[Adder]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
The unspoken underpinning for the lower rate is the fact that it's appalling to tax the same money twice at 28-36%.

Money is not taxed. Persons are taxed.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
The Democrat party: re-distributing everyone else's wealth since 1920 (And please pass the Cristal)

I'm sorry -- can someone remind me, is it Red states or Blue states that suck hardest at the federal government tit?

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Gattigap
So in order for Ty to win this argument, you seem to think that he needs to demonstrate that jackbooted thugs of the federal or state government knocked down the door of a low income family, rifled through the Dad's wallet, and said, "see this $5? We're taking this money -- this fucking $5 bill -- and we're gonna put it in a pot. And then we're taking the pot to Washington.

Once it gets to Washington, then we're gonna take that pot to a failed S&L that manages the Yacht Polishing Service, which gives free polishing and free head to the top 1/10,000th of the population. And it wouldn't be funded at ALL, except for our collection of these $5 bills. So thanks, dumbass citizen. So long, sucker!" and then they peel out of the driveway, knocking down the guy's trash can into the street.

Yeah, I think you're in good shape on this one, Sebby.

"That mean ol sherrif took my birfday present."

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by taxwonk
I'm sorry, there can't possibly be such people. On this board, we have only capacity for binary thinking. You are suggesting that there is a possiblity of there being more than one correct answer to every question or even questions for which there are no answers.

Ergo, you are full of shit, and obviously a Democrat. Shithead.

I've missed you, Wonk, you miserable fuck.