Politics: Where we struggle to kneel in the muck.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by bilmore
Yeah, Kerry mentioned it as praise for Cheney.

Geez, S, get real. The only reason Kerry and Edwards keep bringing it up is because they know that part of W's base doesn't approve. Sleazy use of the kids.

Pure nonsense. I could not disagree more.

It is inconceivable to me that the sexuality of Cheney's daughter is gay could cost B/C a single vote in this election.

However, it is worth pointing out to all Americans, including those who "disapprove" of homosexuality, that there are gay Republicans too -- including some who are well known -- it is hopefully harder for the bigots to demonize those with whom they are otherwise ideological soulmates, and may even make them think a bit.

It is also legitimate to point out -- as Edwards did to some extent and news organizations have done repeatedly-- the split betwween Bush and Cheney on this divisive soical issue.

I find it remarkable that you -- who apparently believes that George W. Bush wanders though the political world like a purposeful Candide - a naif who speaks from the heart and just does what is right and never engages in political calculation -- find it so easy to ascribe the worst motives to this.

So, if Kerry had not spoken her name, but had simply responded more generally with a reference that all recognized -- would you have had the same beef? Or should he just have let it go completely unmentioned, because, after all, it is so shameful?

S_A_M

[bilmore]

Originally posted by taxwonk
I would agree with you completely if she weren't actively involved with the campaign. I think that makes a difference. But I concede it is a close call.

One ABC blurb today:

"Senior Kerry aide acknowledges "it was not his best moment," but calls charges that it was inappropriate "ridiculous… The woman is in her thirties. She's public about her sexuality. It was brought up in the last debate. So, what the hell?" ABC News' Marc Ambinder reports…"

Geez. "It was brought up in the last debate"? Yeah, in almost the exact same line by Edwards, written, no doubt, by the same person.

(From http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/NotedNow/story?id=156246 )

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
To some extent you're right, and certainly the B/C04 campaign has been quick to draw attention to George P. Bush's being (and looking) Hispanic. But the Mary Cheney thing sort of stings of John McCain's "black child" in my mind. While the McCain whisper smear was untrue, the intent was to get voters not to vote for him based on their own prejudices.

Also this is disturbing. I was searching for a reference to the South Carolina whisper campaign and this ended up in the serch results:

The big thing we're forgetting here is that Kerry didn't out Mary Cheney. She was already out, and somewhat activist. Nobody invaded her privacy. She had already made her sexual orientation a public issue. Her parents support her in that activism and advocate her right to be treated like any other American. The fact that he's Bush's Vice President and presumably knows Mary and should know that her orientation isn't (a) a choice or (b) a threat to "our way of life" is a valid point to call Bush on.

For the third time now, if she had been outed, or even if she were simply living her own life and not actively participating in both the campaign and the gay movement, then my feelings would be 100% different.

[dtb]

Originally posted by bilmore
Actually, no. I just think that our society still isn't in a place yet where you can raise the issue like Kerry did for anything other than a snarky, bad-faith reason. Similarly, I feel a lot of contempt for the people doing the involuntary-outing thing for political gain. I thought the treatment of Chelsea was horrible, but I think Kerry's crap was even worse.

Are you suggesting that Kerry's campaign outed Mary Cheney? If so, that is patently untrue. She has been out for quite some time, even if her own mother tried to deny it.

Click here for evidence of MC's being "out". (This was from a 2-second Google search.)

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by dtb
Are you suggesting that Kerry's campaign outed Mary Cheney? If so, that is patently untrue. She has been out for quite some time, even if her own mother tried to deny it.

Click here for evidence of MC's being "out". (This was from a 2-second Google search.)

All of this is an attempt to keep the debate away from jobs and the economy. The fact is, Cheney has talked about her, proudly and eloquently, and it was one of his best moments. During that moment, I liked him.

I hope this helps the sales of Mary's book. But on the debate, let's get back to jobs.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
It is inconceivable to me that the sexuality of Cheney's daughter is gay could cost B/C a single vote in this election.

I agree. Aside from being a crappy thing, it won't do at all what Kerry wanted it to do.

However, it is worth pointing out to all Americans, including those who "disapprove" of homosexuality, that there are gay Republicans too -- including some who are well known -- it is hopefully harder for the bigots to demonize those with whom they are otherwise ideological soulmates, and may even make them think a bit.

Yes, and let's out pretty much any characteristic in anybody's kids that causes disapproval among some in society, in the hopes that it will make others in the same boat more secure. How far are you going to be reaching on this one?

It is also legitimate to point out -- as Edwards did to some extent and news organizations have done repeatedly-- the split betwween Bush and Cheney on this divisive soical issue.

Great. Point it out. Cheney's statements have made that clear, and are out there for citing.

I find it remarkable that you -- who apparently believes that George W. Bush wanders though the political world like a purposeful Candide - a naif who speaks from the heart and just does what is right and never engages in political calculation -- find it so easy to ascribe the worst motives to this.

You make no sense. I find Kerry to be a dishonest, calculating, say-anything-for-the-vote-now kind of guy that Bush isn't, and so have no problem ascribing this motivation to him.

So, if Kerry had not spoken her name, but had simply responded more generally with a reference that all recognized -- would you have had the same beef? Or should he just have let it go completely unmentioned, because, after all, it is so shameful?

So you, too, want to shut this down by claiming I think it's shameful? Let's discuss racial problems next, and you can accuse me of being racist when you don't like my take on AA.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by dtb
Are you suggesting that Kerry's campaign outed Mary Cheney?

No.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by bilmore
Actually, no. I just think that our society still isn't in a place yet where you can raise the issue like Kerry did for anything other than a snarky, bad-faith reason. Similarly, I feel a lot of contempt for the people doing the involuntary-outing thing for political gain. I thought the treatment of Chelsea was horrible, but I think Kerry's crap was even worse.

How so? Chelsea, as a junior high kid, was treated to cruel and calculated remarks about her looks. Cheney's daughter is out, an adult, and an active part of the campaign. The only way I can see being outraged by Kerry's comments is if you are secretly ashamed that Mary Cheney is a lesbian.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
All of this is an attempt to keep the debate away from jobs and the economy. The fact is, Cheney has talked about her, proudly and eloquently, and it was one of his best moments. During that moment, I liked him.

I hope this helps the sales of Mary's book. But on the debate, let's get back to jobs.

I'd rather talk about how Bush lied when he said he never said he wasn't concerned about finding OBL.

[sunnybunny]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
All of this is an attempt to keep the debate away from jobs and the economy. The fact is, Cheney has talked about her, proudly and eloquently, and it was one of his best moments. During that moment, I liked him.

I hope this helps the sales of Mary's book. But on the debate, let's get back to jobs.

Yeah! Let's get back to jobs...here's my plan...fire all the employees who have enough time at work to post on internet chat boards and give their jobs to the unemployed.

But seriously, I'm a card carrying Republican and I didn't take offense to Kerry mentioning Cheney's daughter...I thought it was in poor taste, but that's politics for you 75% of the time. What I did think was Kerry's nail in the coffin for me was the comment on marrying way up...he took it from a compliment to all the wives to what came across as a joke about his elitest over-botoxed wife. Even if he did mean it as "isn't my wife great....i'm so lucky to have her" it came across as a joke about marrying the heir to the Heinz legacy...further alienating those who are concerned that he's just not an average joe in touch with the people. ANd forget about the Botox, Kerry needs an eye lift...he looked droopier than my basset hounds.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
The only way I can see being outraged by Kerry's comments is if you are secretly ashamed that Mary Cheney is a lesbian.

Yes. I've made it clear here for years that I hate gays.

Fuck you all.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by bilmore
I thought the treatment of Chelsea was horrible, but I think Kerry's crap was even worse.

As I've scrolled, I see that I am outvoted. Obviously a lot of people saw it differently. Nonetheless, this last statement is just nuts.

S_A_M

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by bilmore
Yes. I've made it clear here for years that I hate gays.

Fuck you all.

You have made your position clear on this in the past and none of us believe you are a homophobic fuck. I just don't understand the outrage at the statement in general and I find the comparison to Chelsea just baffling.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
I'd rather talk about how Bush lied when he said he never said he wasn't concerned about finding OBL.

Or let's talk about the economy.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/10/14/news...ex.htm?cnn=yes

Yay, fiscal restraint!

[dtb]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
You have made your position clear on this in the past and none of us believe you are a homophobic fuck. I just don't understand the outrage at the statement in general and I find the comparison to Chelsea just baffling.

Shouldn't that be "homophobicist fuck"?

I'm just sayin'.