Politics: J'accuse!

[Not Me]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Federal or state prison? What state?

I could easily believe TX state prisons, except that I think the prisoners run those. Maybe he was being the big man this time.

Virginia. I wonder how long it will be before some plaintiff's attorney starts filing lawsuits against VA for prisoner abuse when prisoners who were in the same jail as him start making up stories of abuse claiming he did that to them, too?

What a mess. I feel so bad for the families.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Not Me
What a mess. I feel so bad for the families.

Of the imprisoned Iraqis, pictures of whose naked bodies have been published internationally?

[Not Me]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Of the imprisoned Iraqis, pictures of whose naked bodies have been published internationally?

I don't know what pictures you saw, but the ones I saw they had bags over their heads. Unless their families can recognize them by their genitalia, I am sure the families don't know it was their son.

Remember, though, they were prisoners of war. They were not innocents. The military wasn't keeping in prison regular privates in the Iraqi army who were just following orders. They were keeping those who were threats to our military.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Not Me
Remember, though, they were prisoners of war. They were not innocents.

Even though the torturers were not who I thought they were, the prisoners are. They're the ones bombing the hell out of the country, shooting from behind kids, and doing their best to wipe out the Iraqi people's chances of having a working, livable state, all in service to their god.

But to show their naked pics internationally?

The horror.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by bilmore
Even though the torturers were not who I thought they were, the prisoners are. They're the ones bombing the hell out of the country, shooting from behind kids, and doing their best to wipe out the Iraqi people's chances of having a working, livable state, all in service to their god.

But to show their naked pics internationally?

The horror.

Agreed. I could give a fuck about the Iraqi POWs. These weren't some scared conscripts who were forced to fight. My only concern is that it makes the job of those on the coalition front lines harder.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Not Me
Virginia. I wonder how long it will be before some plaintiff's attorney starts filing lawsuits against VA for prisoner abuse when prisoners who were in the same jail as him start making up stories of abuse claiming he did that to them, too?

What a mess. I feel so bad for the families.

Our prisons are rife with abuse. We want to lock up criminals, but we don't want to pay for it. Violence and rape are often a way of life in many prisons, often with the complicity of the poorly trained, poorly paid, understaffed minimum wage correctional officers. Virginia is little better than Texas in the lock 'em up and fuck 'em attitude towards its criminals, a large percentage of whom are there for minor drug offenses. If this sheds a little light on the issue and improves prison conditions, so be it. It's a small price to pay to live in a civilized society.

Families of criminals usually suffer. It is sad.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by bilmore
Even though the torturers were not who I thought they were, the prisoners are. They're the ones bombing the hell out of the country, shooting from behind kids, and doing their best to wipe out the Iraqi people's chances of having a working, livable state, all in service to their god.

But to show their naked pics internationally?

The horror.

I appreciate your point. Hell, I've even tried to pee on someone I didn't like (another story for another night). But think about how pissed (mad) you'd be if those were pictures of Americans. It is extremely unhelpful to our efforts and may well become a symbol among the Middle East. Do I want heads to (literally) roll? No. But it was stupid, stupid, stupid.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Our prisons are rife with abuse.

They are like that in Canada, too?

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Violence and rape are often a way of life in many prisons, often with the complicity of the poorly trained, poorly paid, understaffed minimum wage correctional officers.

Agreed that something needs to be done about the raping that goes on in prisons. That is horrific that it is so well known in our society that this goes on and nothing is done to try to prevent it.

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Virginia is little better than Texas in the lock 'em up and fuck 'em attitude towards its criminals, a large percentage of whom are there for minor drug offenses.

There should be separate prisons for violent offenders and non-violent offenders. White collar criminals and perpetrators of victimless crimes like prostitution and drug possession should not be locked up with murderers and rapists and muggers.

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
If this sheds a little light on the issue and improves prison conditions, so be it. It's a small price to pay to live in a civilized society.

Families of criminals usually suffer. It is sad.

I doubt this will shed light on it. If he did abuse prisoners in VA, that is different. I was concerned with those who are going to make stuff up now that they see his picture involved in this scandal.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Not Me
I doubt this will shed light on it. If he did abuse prisoners in VA, that is different. I was concerned with those who are going to make stuff up now that they see his picture involved in this scandal.

From what I've seen, these cases are difficult to bring. There are proof problems when all the witnesses are criminals. The state fights them tooth and nail, making them expensive. The plaintiffs are unsympathetic to a jury making potential recovery limited. Given these factors, I would imagine more valid cases will be ignored than accepted.

[Antiquity]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
And nice cheap shot on the Canadian bit. It doesn't make me a bad person, you racist fuck.

He meant it as a compliment. A young boy growing up in Detroit looks across the river at Windsor and dreams of a better life.

[Antiquity]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
I'd fuck me.

But you're easy.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Not Me
Remember, though, they were prisoners of war. They were not innocents.

Here's the thing --- and I really don't expect you to change this sock radically to pretend to understand this point, so I'm only talking to you to make a point to others who post under real consistent personas --- when it comes to "not innocent" POWs, be careful when preparing that delicious new sauce for the goose. There are a whole lot of our ganders in Iraq and elsewhere, and unlike in the realm of real honest to goodness criminal law, you don't have much of a choice to avoid other "not innocents" being jailed and having your retributive POW policies come back to haunt you.

Besides, the BBC is reporting the man being urinated upon was being held for theft, not blowing up our boys or shooting from behind kids.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Here's the thing --- and I really don't expect you to change this sock radically to pretend to understand this point, so I'm only talking to you to make a point to others who post under real consistent personas --- when it comes to "not innocent" POWs, be careful when preparing that delicious new sauce for the goose. There are a whole lot of our ganders in Iraq and elsewhere, and unlike in the realm of real honest to goodness criminal law, you don't have much of a choice to avoid other "not innocents" being jailed and having your retributive POW policies come back to haunt you.

These are fowl truths that you utter, but I think we can all agree that you are mainly correct.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
sock

If I am a sock, who is my primary? And how the fuck do I have time to get any work done if I am posting as this sock and as a primary?

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
to make a point to others who post under real consistent personas ---

According to Ty, I am consistently literal.

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
when it comes to "not innocent" POWs, be careful when preparing that delicious new sauce for the goose. There are a whole lot of our ganders in Iraq and elsewhere, and unlike in the realm of real honest to goodness criminal law, you don't have much of a choice to avoid other "not innocents" being jailed and having your retributive POW policies come back to haunt you.

Did you even read what I wrote? Answer, no or you are too drunk to comprehend it. I never said to excuse these people for what they did. My only point to Fringey was that I don't care about the families of these POWs. Their heads were covered and you couldn't even tell who they were.

The US is NOT and has never been fighting a war against Iraq. It is a war against Saddam. Those who fight us now are either Saddam loyalist or Al Queda/Hama/Hezbollah anti-US terrorists.

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Besides, the BBC is reporting the man being urinated upon was being held for theft, not blowing up our boys or shooting from behind kids.

If true, that makes it worse. However, since when is the US keeping common criminals in Iraqi jails? I thought these were POW detention centers.

You know, the BBC isn't exactly unbiased. The BBC is so anti-American they have lost credibility on the topic of Iraq.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
" I thought there were WMD in iraq." Now this is what the reporter wanted, but this isn't really a mistake- everyone else did too.

A mistaken belief, if widely held, becomes a true belief? Okay, I'll be more fair: It becomes something, anything, other than a mistaken belief?

A mistake is a mistake. It may be less culpable if you were relying on a conventional wisdom,* but it doesn't make it something other than a mistake.

*Remember, the coalition of the UNwilling harbored enough reasonable doubt that they pussed out on actually killing people in pursuit of the point, so the conventional wisdom was never as adamant as the President on this.