Politics: J'accuse!

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
And whatever happened to cauliflower ears or baseball-bat beatings through phone book-padding? Sheesh, and these guys were prison guards in America?

Hello

Some of the older guy(s) were.

And, while I know your question is half in jest, it seems to me that the choice of such tactics may reflect the influence of someone with some cultural insight (i.e. the MI folks or "civilian contractors" who handled interrogations who are referred to in some reports).

For some of those guys, it might be easier to take a beating than that kind of humiliation. One Shi'a who was in Abu Ghraib both under Hussein and under the U.S. has essentially said that he preferred the beatings. (We should note that that this guy is not exactly a friend of the U.S., as he was apparently on his way down South to join Sadr's al Mahdi Army.)

The interview/article on the front page of the WaPost today (below the fold) with the Iraqi lawyer who was held for 9 days along with his father (the retired Iraqi general) is also illuminating. [No nudity in this one.]

S_A_M

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Bush mistaked!

Bastards like you help prolong this War by giving aid and comfort to the enemy. We'll just call you Hanoi Shape-Shifter from now on.

S_A_M

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Bastards like you help prolong this War by giving aid and comfort to the enemy. We'll just call you Hanoi Shape-Shifter from now on.

S_A_M

Well, at least you stopped the "unpatriotic" balderdash.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man


For some of those guys, it might be easier to take a beating than that kind of humiliation. One Shi'a who was in Abu Ghraib both under Hussein and under the U.S. has essentially said that he preferred the beatings. (We should note that that this guy is not exactly a friend of the U.S., as he was apparently on his way down South to join Sadr's al Mahdi Army.)


S_A_M

My point being, if you are going to force a prisoner to engage in or simulate homosexual activity, you probably don't want to have a U.S. soldier in the picture. Its not nearly as good for us. Otherwise, my point corresponds to yours insofar as I understand the homosexual pictures could be used coercively with great effect in that region.

Hell(you don't want these getting pasted up on every streetpole within a block of your parent's house, do you?)o

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
My point being, if you are going to force a prisoner to engage in or simulate homosexual activity, you probably don't want to have a U.S. soldier in the picture. Its not nearly as good for us. Otherwise, my point corresponds to yours insofar as I understand the homosexual pictures could be used coercively with great effect in that region.

Which, as you also noted, goes a long way towards suggesting that this stuff wasn't being done for blackmail purposes, but just to f- with the prisoners.

And it tends to show that it was done by guards who (while obviously not too bright) didn't see any chance in the world that they could get in trouble for what they are doing. That speaks volumes about command climate, possible "systemic" problems, whether they thought their actions were unauthorized, etc, a la the MG Taquba (sp?) report .

I liked the quote in the Hersh article from the young MP who'd said that if MI wanted him to take away prisoners' clothes, matresses, blankets, etc., he'd "need some paperwork."

S_A_M

S_A_M

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
And it tends to show that it was done by guards who (while obviously not too bright) didn't see any chance in the world that they could get in trouble for what they are doing. That speaks volumes about command climate, possible "systemic" problems, whether they thought their actions were unauthorized, etc, a la the MG Taquba (sp?) report .

Really? I thought it spoke volumes about what stupid assholes those guards were.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by bilmore
Really? I thought it spoke volumes about what stupid assholes those guards were.

I swear I think we are all saying the same things here. Putting the U.S. soldiers in the pictures indicates more that these guys were being assholes than that they were under orders. That said, and as I initially noted towards the beginning of this thread (and as now phrased by S_A_M)... it > speaks volumes about command climate, possible "systemic" problems, whether they thought their actions were unauthorized<.

Ultimately, I hold a military officer responsible for this. If they were being told to do something they didn't like by civilians, they could always write reports upstairs. They could always ensure their troops followed the Geneva convention, let alone normal rules of survival when bored and far from home (i.e., don't get your picture taken in a room full of naked men!). Instead, Gen. Karpala and a few others are pointing the fingers everwhere else.

Show me the memo(s) they wrote to protest what was happening in their prison, or show me their resignation letters.

Hello

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by bilmore
Really? I thought it spoke volumes about what stupid assholes those guards were.

I'd say that too. But I think it would be a mistake to discount or ignore the rest. Even stupid assholes can be deterred if the environment is right.

The MP commander I knew best was a real upright, hardcore kind of guy (Brigade commander). Ran a very tight ship within the unit -- made it clear that his people were expected to adhere to even higher standards of conduct than most soldiers because they were the policemen.

Even so, there was one incident while I was there in which a few guys in his brigade were implicated in a very serious crime. [Because they were smart assholes, who understood investigative techiques and forensics, we not able to prove it -- but "taking the 5th" instantly ended their military careers.] There is always the possibility of bad apples in any unit.

However, it is utterly inconceivable to me that such abuses could occur, particularly openly and over the period of time suggested in the Taquba report, if the command climate was right. I suspect the Army agrees, which is why the CG was one of the first ones relieved (and other senior officers are also on the chopping block). While there may or may not be any more "naked pyramid" stories, I'd be surprised if these were truly isolated incidents. I'd think you tend to work your way up to naked pyramids and forced/mock oral sex.

S_A_M

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
However, it is utterly inconceivable to me that such abuses could occur, particularly openly and over the period of time suggested in the Taquba report, if the command climate was right.

I guess I'm going to have to actually read that report if I want to comment on this stuff.

Damn.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

I haven't found the whole report anywhere, but here is a link to "key excerpts" which I think are more extensive than the quotes in the Hersh article.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4894033/

S_A_M

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
I haven't found the whole report anywhere, but here is a link to "key excerpts" which I think are more extensive than the quotes in the Hersh article.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4894033/

S_A_M

As expected, most of that stuff seems fairly tame, but some of it is not something we want to read as being done by our kids.

Uhm, particularly the broom-stick sodomy. The rest of that shit doesn't even belong in the same report as that kind of allegation/offense.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
As expected, most of that stuff seems fairly tame

Um, with the exception of the thing about the cold water, I'm hard pressed to figure out which of the allegations "seem[] fairly tame." I'm not yet up to "most," as you apparently are.

For example, all of the times I've been threatened with male rape, it's been in a relatively jocular environment that I was free to leave, or, in the case of law firms, at which I was getting paid at the time. Being told so in a prison doesn't strike me as "fairly tame."

If I read this shit was happening to American GIs anywhere in the world, or even American criminals anywhere in the world, I'd be howling for airstrikes. This isn't a black eye for the CPA; it's a kick in the nuts.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Um, with the exception of the thing about the cold water, I'm hard pressed to figure out which of the allegations "seem[] fairly tame." I'm not yet up to "most," as you apparently are.

For example, all of the times I've been threatened with male rape, it's been in a relatively jocular environment that I was free to leave, or, in the case of law firms, at which I was getting paid at the time. Being told so in a prison doesn't strike me as "fairly tame."

If I read this shit was happening to American GIs anywhere in the world, or even American criminals anywhere in the world, I'd be howling for airstrikes. This isn't a black eye for the CPA; it's a kick in the nuts.

Some of it is somewhere between "tame" and a "kick in the nuts" (or broom-handle sodomy), but as examples of tame I'd offer the following:

"Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet". Hate to tell you this, but it happens every day in America. Who you gonna bomb?

"Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees". I'm sure we've all had our pictures taken naked before somewhere or other.


"Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time". Again, every day in America.

"Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear". Is this a war crime? Christ, in some places judges call this kind of thing a constitutional right.

"Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them". Sounds like an art class I never had.

"Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture". There's nothing like the real thing.

"Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked". Did you see the Soppranos this season when AJ's friends glued his head to the carpet and shaved off his eyebrows?

"Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture". My God, execute these savages!

"A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee". Its not right, and it would be a kick in the nuts if they used the word rape, or if she was a total fatty, but it doesn't say she was raped or fat. As far as we know, she came on to him.

"Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee". Did the inmates have a particular reason to be intimidated and frightened that day? I assume the military has working dogs in a prison for a reason.

"Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees". Crime scene photos? As long as they don't end up in the press or internet, its fairly harmless.

And then there were several others I left out intentionally because they would agree with your kick in the nuts comment, or come close.

Most of this stuff happens every day already in America, so we shouldn't be surprised that American prison guards are doing it in Iraq.

Hello

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
"Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time". Again, every day in America.

Probably betraying my naivete here, but...where?

"Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them". Sounds like an art class I never had.

This advances the interrogation process....how?

"Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture". There's nothing like the real thing.

About as tame as holding an unloaded gun to a detainee's head and pulling the trigger. For extra credit, pull it multiple times.

"A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee". Its not right, and it would be a kick in the nuts if they used the word rape, or if she was a total fatty, but it doesn't say she was raped or fat. As far as we know, she came on to him.

In the US, if a male guard had sex with a female convict, would you presume she came on to him? The balance of power is pretty far in favor of the guard.

"Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee". Did the inmates have a particular reason to be intimidated and frightened that day? I assume the military has working dogs in a prison for a reason.

Probably the article does not provide sufficient detail to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the detainees were intimidated without justification. But taken all together, these suggest a way of treating prisoners that does not line up to the way Americans like to believe their soldiers comport themselves.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Hello

Why waste your time defending the indefensible?* Pick your battles, Hello. This may not be dropping people into shredders feet first, but this goes beyond the level of frat boy hijinks. This is some sick shit. I'm embarrassed by their behavior. Bush has indicated he is. You should be too.

*Um, okay, maybe I do this. But I'm paid for it.