Waiting for Fitzgerald

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
I got into a big fight with someone once over the Montana Freemen. He was an "America Love It Or Lump It" sort with a hot temper and I was a silly law student who thought that normal people understood the whole playing devil's advocate thing. He got really mad at me (in a restaurant) when I tried to explain to him what their position was (they don't want the benefits of our government, so they shouldn't have to pay taxes). Not saying it was right (because, you know, the Freemen are nuts), just explaining it.

I still have a fondness in my heart for the Freemen as a result of this encounter. Is it wrong to be amused when people get really really pissed off over stupid things?

My law school friend who was married to Mr Hot Temper later divorced him because he was verbally abusive to her.

So this means your repudiation of acknowledgement of my long past crush is now repudiated? Or vice versa?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by bilmore


Now, we'll link hands and sing "We are the World . . . "

Kumbayah not good enough for you?

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Being productive? Excuse me while I blow the coffee out of my nose...

Most of the better paid of us work in jerk off gigs buttfucking regs, statutes and boilerplate... I haven't done a goddamned thing to beneg=fit humanity thru my job since my last pro bono case in 1997. The middle class is a pack of middlemen, and wwe feed off the productive, ccrossing their ts and dotting their " i"s. Hey, its a living, but don't call us all generally "prodcutive" jusst because we work. This is just some shit I do to get money to live my life. I could just as easily be a broker or a barber or a janitor. Like Ruben Carter, "Its my job, and I do it for pay, and whhen I'm done, I'd just as soon be on my way..."

Productive? Thats rich.

You middle class? Excuse me while I reintroduce you to reality. You, Sebby, and most of the people on the board, are not the middle class. We are the rich.

I'm talking about the factory workers, truck drivers, computer techs, and grocery store managers who are the middle class.

Now... what were you saying?

[bilmore]

Originally posted by taxwonk
You middle class? Excuse me while I reintroduce you to reality. You, Sebby, and most of the people on the board, are not the middle class. We are the rich.

Be fair, now. Very human trait. I bet there aren't three people here who wouldn't claim to occupy a centrist political position.

Even the barking moonbats want to think of themselves as moderates.

As long as we can see someone poorer than us, and then also see someone richer than us, we must be "the middle", right?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by taxwonk
You middle class? Excuse me while I reintroduce you to reality. You, Sebby, and most of the people on the board, are not the middle class. We are the rich.

I'm talking about the factory workers, truck drivers, computer techs, and grocery store managers who are the middle class.

Now... what were you saying?

Which Bentley should I go for? Continental GT or Arnage?

I disagree. We are middle class. The new middle class is $75k to $250k. No, I'm not kidding.

My wife and I are both professionals, live in a nice area, in a fairly nice small, affordable home. Drive used cars.

We are OK. I ain't worried about paying the mortgage. But RICH? Not. Anywhere. Near. It.

Try living in California and owning a decent home in a good area on $100k. $100k is the new $50k. Fuck, the private school I will have to send the kid to for high school is already $25k.

The people you're describing as middle class are now "poor."

Or maybe I'm nuts. Its possible. But one thing I ain't is rich.

ETA: Upper middle class is $250k - $400k. Rich starts at $600k. Doing really nice is $400k to $600k.

ETA2: Numbers and cutoffs obviously differ if you're single and based on whether you have kids.

[Spanky]

Free Markets are preferable because they bring the greatest good to the greatest amount of people. I like the idea of the flat tax because I think it would lead to more growth. However, I like the idea of taxing the rich more because like I said before, they derive less utility our of their money than a poor person. In addition, if you keep taxes low in the lower income levels that allows infant entrepeneurs a greater chance of succeeding.

The goal of the tax system should be to interfere with the economy as little as possible to allow growth. However, if you can get more of your tax dollars out of the rich (without further hampering growth) so much the better.

I don't think people in the bottom quartile of income should pay any income taxes.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Spanky
Free Markets are preferable because they bring the greatest good to the greatest amount of people. I like the idea of the flat tax because I think it would lead to more growth. However, I like the idea of taxing the rich more because like I said before, they derive less utility our of their money than a poor person. In addition, if you keep taxes low in the lower income levels that allows infant entrepeneurs a greater chance of succeeding.

The goal of the tax system should be to interfere with the economy as little as possible to allow growth. However, if you can get more of your tax dollars out of the rich (without further hampering growth) so much the better.

I don't think people in the bottom quartile of income should pay any income taxes.

I agree. problem is, your position - because it is entirely rational - is unmarketable.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by bilmore
A major driver of this effort is eleimination or degradation of the AMT. To the extent that AMT is another artifical move away from the flat tax, this is a removal of engineering.

I'm on board with this [a REAL flat tax]. Where do we sign up?

Taxwonk for President in '08.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by bilmore
Be fair, now. Very human trait. I bet there aren't three people here who wouldn't claim to occupy a centrist political position.

Even the barking moonbats want to think of themselves as moderates.

As long as we can see someone poorer than us, and then also see someone richer than us, we must be "the middle", right?

I guess you're right.

I suppose my perspective is skewed because, thanks to the riproaring success of my solo practice, I know for an absolute fact that I am the Poor and the mortgage interest deduction is about to become a non-issue for me.

But I'm not complaining.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by taxwonk
You middle class? Excuse me while I reintroduce you to reality. You, Sebby, and most of the people on the board, are not the middle class. We are the rich.

I'm talking about the factory workers, truck drivers, computer techs, and grocery store managers who are the middle class.

Now... what were you saying?

How do you define class, by income or balance sheet? On income I may be rich, on balance sheet I know people with lower middle class incomes who are more fiscally healthy than me. But that is typical leftist propaganda, Ted Kennedy, Soros, Buffett and the rest of the elitists sit on their billion dollar fortunes and look to the hard working guy making a few hundred grand to foot the bill for their socialist delusions. What flavour is the kool-aid today?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by bilmore
Be fair, now. Very human trait. I bet there aren't three people here who wouldn't claim to occupy a centrist political position.

Even the barking moonbats want to think of themselves as moderates.

As long as we can see someone poorer than us, and then also see someone richer than us, we must be "the middle", right?

I am a person of principle and moral clarity, I am not sure if that makes me a centrist or not. Certainly it excludes me from the left.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Which Bentley should I go for? Continental GT or Arnage?

I disagree. We are middle class. The new middle class is $75k to $250k. No, I'm not kidding.

My wife and I are both professionals, live in a nice area, in a fairly nice small, affordable home. Drive used cars.

We are OK. I ain't worried about paying the mortgage. But RICH? Not. Anywhere. Near. It.

Try living in California and owning a decent home in a good area on $100k. $100k is the new $50k. Fuck, the private school I will have to send the kid to for high school is already $25k.

The people you're describing as middle class are now "poor."

Or maybe I'm nuts. Its possible. But one thing I ain't is rich.

ETA: Upper middle class is $250k - $400k. Rich starts at $600k. Doing really nice is $400k to $600k.

ETA2: Numbers and cutoffs obviously differ if you're single and based on whether you have kids.

2. Mas o menos.

[SlaveNoMore]

taxwonk
Taxwonk for President in '08.

the Anti-Cheney.

(sort of)

[Captain]

Originally posted by taxwonk
The proposal is to eliminate the deduction for new home mortgages and to phase out the deduction for existing mortgages over five years.

Ah. That addresses my biggest concern. We could quibble about whether the transition should be longer, but it is the economic dislocation that seems to be biggest problem for me.

I don't have a lot of objections to getting rid of this deduction in this way, and if Bush wants to grab ahold of this third rail, I say, bless him.

[nononono]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
2. Mas o menos.

3.