Nutjobs Ranting About Politics.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by taxwonk
My post made very clear that I hadn't researched Kerry's voting record enough to know whether or not I was right. The post also predicted Hank's response would be similarly uninformed.

I understand that, and noted it when I read it. I just have this visceral urge to throttle anyone uttering "Haliburton" as if the word, standing alone with no background in DAR-FAR procedural history and major-project economic planning, means something bad about this admin.

[SlaveNoMore]

sgtclub
POF - Halliburton got no-bid contracts under Clinton as well. Now that may not justify them (it may, I'm just not informed on the subject) but it certainly belies the allegedly nefarious connections with Cheney.

As pointed out in numerous places, Halliburton's stock has tanked since 2000. With Bush/Cheney in its pocket, pray tell, why is this?

[bilmore]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Here is some back-up on his anti-defense campaigning over the years.

Soup, the .pdf's in Slave's post are the memo pages I was speaking of.

1984, I note.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by bilmore
I understand that, and noted it when I read it. I just have this visceral urge to throttle anyone uttering "Haliburton" as if the word, standing alone with no background in DAR-FAR procedural history and major-project economic planning, means something bad about this admin.

Note my post, supra, acknowledging that the military procurement mess well predates Cheney

[bilmore]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Note my post, supra, acknowledging that the military procurement mess well predates Cheney

Yep, saw that.

Note that I said "visceral". Like, reflexive. From the gut. Spews forth before seeing all evidence.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by taxwonk
My post made very clear that I hadn't researched Kerry's voting record enough to know whether or not I was right. The post also predicted Hank's response would be similarly uninformed.

Your initial response, on the other hand, actually appears to have been based upon having looked at the reported basis for Kerry's votes. I note and appreciate the difference.

Honey. I was asking you to clarify what you meant. Was it snide? Yes. Perhaps should join AG is his push for a kinder PB. As to your being tired of me, I think you have said more mean things to me that I have to you over the past week. More; not better.

Substance? I do some "procurement" for my firm. I was looking at firing my bank last month- but first step would be to find another bank. You say maybe Kerry didn't want to buy from "Halliburton." Halliburton doesn't make weapons systems so I assumed you meant military contractors generally. Like my bank, if you don't buy helicopters from Sikorsky you have to buy from someone. the only companies selling are Boeing, Bell etc. That is, "Halliburton." So my post, though snide, did make the point refusing to buy weapons from "Halliburton" is fully equivalent to not buying them.

No bid contracts? Do you know how much effort goes into proposals for the next gen jet or other equipment? Do you know how much proprietary technology is developed? By definition the "next gen" is not a commodity, so if Kerry is truly hung up on eliminating "no bid" on the final product it still gets to never being able to buy the next gen.

The evaluation part comes in before you get the bid approved, but there is a very detailed competitive bid process. I've seen legal budgets slashed from copanies who lose out a K. that thought they had.

[Aloha Mr. Learned Hand]

Originally posted by sgtclub
POF - Halliburton got no-bid contracts under Clinton as well. Now that may not justify them (it may, I'm just not informed on the subject) but it certainly belies the allegedly nefarious connections with Cheney.

Part of the reason they got and will continue to get Defense contracts is that for many of the services they provide, they are the only large-scale provider or one of only 2 competitors. There simply isn't much of an alternative.

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Originally posted by baltassoc
How "way back"? Was this anywhere 1992-1998? 'Cause then I'm thinking not so much bad. If we're talking post 9/11, that's a different matter. Maybe. Even then, not so much, if we're giving up a program / weapon that's really good at stopping the advance of Soviet troops across Germany in favor of, say, bomb detection technology.

I remember in 93, 94 in particular (because I happened to be taking a class on US defense policy), everybody, both sides of the isle, was talking about the "peace dividend."

I also am curious to know (and I'm sure some left wing wonk will provide) which things Miller himself voted against, or if he voted in the opposite direction from Kerry on each of those bills.

I didn't hear Miller's speech, so I didn't write down a list of the weapons systems Kerry allegedly voted against. But this issue has been raised before by BC04, and addressed.

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=177

[soup sandwich]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Here is some back-up on his anti-defense campaigning over the years.

Do the Dems have enough time to do a Torricelli and get this lead balloon off the ticket??

Thanks for the link. Ugh. Why did we nominate this guy? At least if we'd gone with Edwards we wouldn't be being dragged down by a lousy voting record as well as Kerry's infrequent vote casting. I'd much rather fight the "no experience" battle than having to defend Kerry's record.

Maybe ShapeShifter is right and it's just too hard to get elected for President when you have to defend 20 years of Senate voting.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Honey. I was asking you to clarify what you meant. Was it snide? Yes. Perhaps should join AG is his push for a kinder PB. As to your being tired of me, I think you have said more mean things to me that I have to you over the past week. More; not better.

I haven't kept count, quantatively. On a qualitative basis, I don't need to.

Substance? I do some "procurement" for my firm. I was looking at firing my bank last month- but first step would be to find another bank. You say maybe Kerry didn't want to buy from "Halliburton." Halliburton doesn't make weapons systems so I assumed you meant military contractors generally. Like my bank, if you don't buy helicopters from Sikorsky you have to buy from someone. the only companies selling are Boeing, Bell etc. That is, "Halliburton." So my post, though snide, did make the point refusing to buy weapons from "Halliburton" is fully equivalent to not buying them.

No bid contracts? Do you know how much effort goes into proposals for the next gen jet or other equipment? Do you know how much proprietary technology is developed? The evaluation part comes in before you get the bid approved, but there is a very detailed competitive bid process. I've seen legal budgets slashed from clients who lose out a K. that thought they had.

I understand that a great deal of money and effort goes into making a competitive bid. I also understand that the costs oflosing acontract are high. But that's the cost of doing business. It's far from a perfect system,but competitive bids (assuming they aren't rigged) at least keep people a little more honest.

[SlaveNoMore]

bilmore
Note that I said "visceral".

Speaking of visceral, here is more typical contemptible hyperbole from the Left - actually, it would be contemptible if it wasn't so pathetically laughable:

link

• Feminists Compare Bush's 2000 Election Victory to 'Savage Rape'
  By Marc Morano
  CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
  September 02, 2004
  
  New York (CNSNews.com) - A featured performer at a National Organization for Women rally accused President Bush of having "savagely raped " women "over and over" by allegedly stealing the 2000 presidential election.
  
  Poet Molly Birnbaum read aloud to a crowd of feminists gathered in New York's Central Park on Wednesday night, as part of a NOW event dubbed "Code Red: Stop the Bush Agenda Rally."
  
  "Imagine a way to erase that night four years ago when you (President Bush) savagely raped every pandemic woman over and over with each vote you got, a thrust with each state you stole," Birnbaum said from the podium. (If something is pandemic, it affects many people or a number of countries.)[Slave note: thanks for explaining this for the illiterate buffoons who read CBS news
  
  "A smack with each bill you passed, a tear with each right you took until you left me disenfranchised with hands shackled and voice restrained. Thanks for that night, Mr. President, I can barely remember my tomorrows," Birnbaum said to applause.
  
  Birnbaum's reading was followed by a performance by Gina Young, described as a singer of "feminist folk punk." Young's song included the following verse about Bush:
  
  "I got better grades than you, you stupid boy W. Your dad was a killer, too, and you know that nobody voted for you," Young sang as the crowd erupted in applause.
  
  "I object not just to this war, but to all of the things that you stand for, like dropping bombs to lower the price of gas. I guess the Constitution is just some piece of scrap paper you use to wipe you're a**, you bastard," Young sang to more applause.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Sexual Harassment Panda
I didn't hear Miller's speech, so I didn't write down a list of the weapons systems Kerry allegedly voted against. But this issue has been raised before by BC04, and addressed.

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=177

I don't think factcheck-org (which normally does excellent work) looked closely enough at what Kerry was saying in '84. Spcifically, I think the memo Slave posted belies FC's point.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Hank, I've tired of your oversimplified, non-responses to my posts. If you want to respond to the substance of the point I made, feel free to do so.

Hahahahah, POTD.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by taxwonk
I haven't kept count, quantatively. On a qualitative basis, I don't need to.

right. you got mad. that answers the question.

I understand that a great deal of money and effort goes into making a competitive bid. I also understand that the costs oflosing acontract are high. But that's the cost of doing business. It's far from a perfect system,but competitive bids (assuming they aren't rigged) at least keep people a little more honest.

Now you ignored my point. Air Force selects Jet co. A because its proposal for a jet with new technology allowing it to do X is better than Jet co. B's proposal for a Jet to do Y. that was competitive. Air Force picked X over Y. Co A owns X. You can't bid it out.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by taxwonk
The horrendous state of defense spending and military procurement goes back to Scoop Jackson at the least, and probably the Civil War.

No joke --- the Federal False Claims Act was enacted in 1863 to counteract war profiteers who were selling barrels of gunpowder that were 3/4 sawdust, or selling the same horse to the Union Army several times over.

Any person's legislative record could be used to prove a false point. In 1998 I voted against making the sale of horsemeat in California a felony. An opponent could alternatively claim that I eat horsemeat, or hate horses, or love Frenchmen. My claim that I merely thought it should be a misdemeanor would be drowned out.*

Kerry is a legislator representing a state that does not particularly benefit from defense spending compared to states where it is a no-brainer. I daresay his votes were pretty representative of the desires of his constituency. Bilmore and others would say this means he is a moral shape-shifter. Not so --- he is a Senator, and anyone in the Senate can only explain their voting patterns based on their judgment regarding what the people back home want to see happen with their country. That is the only way the system works.

I find it hard to square the oversimplification of votes against defense measures --- most of which are destined to pass anyway if they're even a remotely good idea** --- with the repeated complaint that the GOP is all too often and easily cast as the enemy of children and the elderly poor based on the voting records of every single GOP legislator.

*This is a lie. I voted against it because horse is deeelicious.

**Remember, Congress often passes defense projects that even the Pentagon thinks are a waste of money, because all but a few shipbuilding and aerospace measures are pork products under a thin veneer of national security.