The babyjesuschristsuperstar on Board: filling the moral void of Clinton’s legacy

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
We're only demanding they be civilized. Is that too much to ask? How the hell can we shrink from that obligation?

A pragmatist does not necessarily take the path of least resistance. A pragmatist is someone who recognizes reality and takes the path with the best chance of accomplishing the goal.

It is at least an open question as to whether saying:

"Fuck you and what you believe, you are a savage! We despise you!"

is really the best way to "civilize" folks, help their society evolve, and change their minds.

By way of comparison, the many images of Arabs burning the American flag and chanting 'Death to America!" haven't done much to change U.S. policy towards the countries in question and/or win the hearts and minds of the American people.

S_A_M

P.S. I just heard on NPR that the President of Iran has announced that he is commissioning a contest for the publication of political cartoons on the Holocaust. It won't be all that much worse that the standard stuff in many popular Arab papers, but at least you know you're in good company.

[Diane_Keaton]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Christians on the Board who were apparently offended by the scat-themed artwork involving Christian symbols -- of which there are a few (I recall Slave, Diane, etc.)

Sorry, S.A.M. You are way out of line and are pretty much grabbing for air, here. I never mentioned ANYTHING about my personal beliefs about the Christian symbol artwork. In our country, there was a debate about whether they were "art" (mostly, and importantly, in the context of whether our taxpayers money should be used for it.) Many found their artistic nature questionable and some were offended. As someone who finds Goetse hilarious, I was certainly not offended by them. In fact, I saw the pee one and, in context, thought it conveyed a powerful message that was personal to the artist. You must be confusing my lambasting of the orange drapes. Because I like my art, and especially my photography, extreme, and more than likely, I'll find it artistic. From pee crosses to gay erotica ala Mapplethorpe.

So leave me out of your schtick please. I am a consistent social liberal and massive defender of freedom of speech. (I just didn't like the drapes).

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Auditioning to replace Bolton at the U.N.?

S_A_M

May I take your failure to address the substance of the comment as an admission that I'm mainly correct?

I mean, just cause I happen to agree with that horse's ass doesn't mean I'm wrong, does it?

Or do you think its not a good idea to civilize the Muslim World? Are you in favor of allowing them to remain regressive?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
A pragmatist does not necessarily take the path of least resistance. A pragmatist is someone who recognizes reality and takes the path with the best chance of accomplishing the goal.

It is at least an open question as to whether saying:

"Fuck you and what you believe, you are a savage! We despise you!"

is really the best way to "civilize" folks, help their society evolve, and change their minds.

By way of comparison, the many images of Arabs burning the American flag and chanting 'Death to America!" haven't done much to change U.S. policy towards the countries in question and/or win the hearts and minds of the American people.

S_A_M

P.S. I just heard on NPR that the President of Iran has announced that he is commissioning a contest for the publication of political cartoons on the Holocaust. It won't be all that much worse that the standard stuff in many popular Arab papers, but at least you know you're in good company.

Using a soft touch with Radical Islam is pointless. That cartoon is not pissing on their beliefs. It is merely an incendiary piece of art which rational, sensible, civilized people can discuss. Islamists are free to boycott and complain. They are not free to issue fatwas demanding the cartoonists' assassination, burn cars or bomb embassies. That is not a civilized response.

We must condition these brutes by repeatedly forcing them to deal with a free press. I don't advocate telling them their religion is shit. I advocate allowing it to be mocked in the press the same way Christianity and Judaism are mocked. Islam isn't some "special" religion whose adherents are allowed to bully the press into submission. They need to learn to take their lumps the same way the rest of the civilized Jews, Christians and Atheists do.

Simply put, we need to force Islam to get over itself. Its not that fucking important, and it should not be such a damned cancer on so many governments. These people need to learn to keep their goddamned religion at home. They need a separation of church and state. Fuck, even Israel observes a separation of church and state, and its the homeland of a fucking religion! Why do the Muslims always get a pass to act like barbarians? Is it soft bigotry of low expactations? Is it a handicapping for the perpetual underdog?

Fuck Islam's heightened sensitivities. They should be heldto the same standards as the rest of us, and fuck you if you're going to offer me some apologist claptrap excuses for why we should kiss their asses.

[sgtclub]

• ST. PETERSBURG, Russia, Feb. 7 (UPI) -- A Russian astronomer has predicted that Earth will experience a "mini Ice Age" in the middle of this century, caused by low solar activity.
  
  Khabibullo Abdusamatov of the Pulkovo Astronomic Observatory in St. Petersburg said Monday that temperatures will begin falling six or seven years from now, when global warming caused by increased solar activity in the 20th century reaches its peak, RIA Novosti reported.
  
  The coldest period will occur 15 to 20 years after a major solar output decline between 2035 and 2045, Abdusamatov said.
  
  Dramatic changes in the earth's surface temperatures are an ordinary phenomenon, not an anomaly, he said, and result from variations in the sun's energy output and ultraviolet radiation.
  
  The Northern Hemisphere's most recent cool-down period occurred between 1645 and 1705. The resulting period, known as the Little Ice Age, left canals in the Netherlands frozen solid and forced people in Greenland to abandon their houses to glaciers, the scientist said.
  

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I will never post here again if you delete them.

Do you think that is a cautionary deterrent or an incentive for Ty?

More seriously, for the Board's information, it has come to my attention, via reasonably reliable sources, that the "sock" that requested the deletions was in cahoots, sts, with the sock who was posting, in effort to (i) rouse me from retirement; and/or (ii) create a board commotion. As such and per the input of the Board community that I have received to date, there will be no deletions, the cartoons will stand as a statement to the world that this a free and equitable forum of ideas, and I will be going back into retirement, where the drinks start flowing by noon.

[Garcon, another pina colada por favor.]

Stay well and think of me fondly in my absence.

Hasta luego,

Penske

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
May I take your failure to address the substance of the comment as an admission that I'm mainly correct?

I mean, just cause I happen to agree with that horse's ass doesn't mean I'm wrong, does it?

Or do you think its not a good idea to civilize the Muslim World? Are you in favor of allowing them to remain regressive?

Nope.

Nope.

I don't think that one nation, culture, or religion can really "civilize" another. (That term is itself very subjective, isn't it?) Anyhow, that decision has to come from within, and may be affected by outside pressures, but can't ultimately be forced.

Thus, I think that there is no issue of "allowing" them to remain regressive. They don't need our permission, and we can only stop it by: (a) some kind of policy of gradual change with continuing, "constructive engagement" -- like the policy the GOP and RR claimed it pursued with South Africa; or (b) invading the nation, subduing the people, changing the laws, and enforcing compliance for generations.

Both of these are long term projects, and I don't think the second method would get the job done in the long term.

S_A_M

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Fuck Islam's heightened sensitivities. They should be heldto the same standards as the rest of us, and fuck you if you're going to offer me some apologist claptrap excuses for why we should kiss their asses.

(a) In this country, they are held to the same standards as everyone else. No riots here.

(b) There is a difference between kissing someone's ass and not spitting on someone (especially after they say -- "don't spit on me.").

As for the rest of it, "Sebby, I'm not from Hollywood and I'm not going to fuck your mouth." So give it a rest.

S_A_M

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
You are an idiot. These are news organizations that operate internationally.

Do you really want to get their reporters, camera-men, local staff employees, etc. assaulted and/or killed ? It would happen in a number of countries if they published the cartoons, and I think that is part of why they have not done so. You should understand, given that you created another sock just to talk about the subject.

That is why the posting here means nothing, and the posting in the European newspapers means almost nothing -- no consequences. Like limousine liberals in NY in the 1960's talking about civil rights at cocktail parties. Hooray for you. Wow, you are great!

I am not in any way defending any of the actions of any of the rioting lunatics -- though peaceful protesters have every right to bitch about whatever they want. I think that this type of violent reaction is a sign of an immature, primitive culture and politics which has never grown up in part because of poverty, lack of education, and a lack of true democracy.

That said, there are a whole lot of Muslims, including American Muslims, who aren't reacting violently, but are saddened and/or offended by what seems to be an equally primitive desire to shove a stick in their eyes.

I would have thought that those of you who profess to have been Christians offended by the various gross depictions of the Virgin Mary or Christ in publicly-funded art here in the 1980s and 1990s would be a little more sensitive to the religious sensibilities of other devout believers. Instead, your attitude seems to be -- "since we had to put up wth it, let's do it to them!" Why?

S_A_M

I also would have thought that Spanky, etc. would respect their use of boycotts as a legitimate example of the market in action. Christians do it all the time here in the U.S.

While I do not necessarily believe that free speech for its own sake is always a virtue (witness the Nazis marching in Skokie, those of you old enough to remember that), I do think that a little bit of "fuck you" speech is every bit as valid as any other form of speech. It promotes as much, if not more, public discourse about controversial topics.

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Originally posted by Spanky
Well he now has a chance to get rid of me forever. He just needs to delete one picture "so as not to offend".

I don't know why you are posting here now in the first place. McCloskey needs an apartment, an office, some telephone lines, a P.O. Box, a dry cleaner, some nubile young volunteers - you must have a to-do list a mile long.

[the Vicar of Piss Christ]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Using a soft touch with Radical Islam is pointless. That cartoon is not pissing on their beliefs. It is merely an incendiary piece of art which rational, sensible, civilized people can discuss. Islamists are free to boycott and complain. They are not free to issue fatwas demanding the cartoonists' assassination, burn cars or bomb embassies. That is not a civilized response.

We must condition these brutes by repeatedly forcing them to deal with a free press. I don't advocate telling them their religion is shit. I advocate allowing it to be mocked in the press the same way Christianity and Judaism are mocked. Islam isn't some "special" religion whose adherents are allowed to bully the press into submission. They need to learn to take their lumps the same way the rest of the civilized Jews, Christians and Atheists do.

Simply put, we need to force Islam to get over itself. Its not that fucking important, and it should not be such a damned cancer on so many governments. These people need to learn to keep their goddamned religion at home. They need a separation of church and state. Fuck, even Israel observes a separation of church and state, and its the homeland of a fucking religion! Why do the Muslims always get a pass to act like barbarians? Is it soft bigotry of low expactations? Is it a handicapping for the perpetual underdog?

Fuck Islam's heightened sensitivities. They should be heldto the same standards as the rest of us, and fuck you if you're going to offer me some apologist claptrap excuses for why we should kiss their asses.

Word! I'm so glad you weighed in on the side of reason Sebestian. I have ignored a lot of yours posts since Infirmation.com days but glad to see you still have it and are speaking out against this rubbish. If Islam wants respect in the world community then they have to progress to at least an 18th century level or else they can suck it. Hard.

Any rationale person who sees these cartoons knows that they are nothing but fodder for compassionate humanistic intellectual discourse, and even at that they are no big deal, at least not to a free person with a progressive multicultural mind who believes in free speech.

As someone who doodles now and again for fun, I will offer another cartoon that will attempt to be a representation of the prophet's true life, or at least one moment in it, that being, an animated doodling of his jiggling 5o something year old ass as he schtupps his 9 year old bride Aisha! Although I don't want to publish kiddy porno so I will use a symbol for Aisha.

[Diane_Keaton]

Originally posted by the Vicar of Piss Christ
...speaking out against this rubbish.... fodder for compassionate humanistic intellectual discourse

If I were a betting man, I'd say this sock was Slave.

[LessinSF]

Originally posted by the Vicar of Piss Christ
Any rationale person who sees these cartoons knows that they are nothing but fodder for compassionate humanistic intellectual discourse, and even at that they are no big deal, at least not to a free person with a progressive multicultural mind who believes in free speech.

Exactly. I see this as a wonderful needed example of the danger of even "moderate" Islam. The overreaction of violence, burnings, deaths, death threats, etc. to these cartoons - http://www.faithfreedom.org/Gallery/Mo_Cartoons.jpg - proves the point of the cartoonists; that Islam is the greatest threat to our way of life. Hopefully, European apologists will wake up and realize how even "moderate" Islam would govern if allowed to.

Funnily, I think the Iranian response - to have a contest for Holocaust-denying cartoons - is the best one yet. http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/...704032,00.html . Go for it.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
If I were a betting man, I'd say this sock was Slave.

How much?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Using a soft touch with Radical Islam is pointless. That cartoon is not pissing on their beliefs. It is merely an incendiary piece of art which rational, sensible, civilized people can discuss. Islamists are free to boycott and complain. They are not free to issue fatwas demanding the cartoonists' assassination, burn cars or bomb embassies. That is not a civilized response.

We must condition these brutes by repeatedly forcing them to deal with a free press. I don't advocate telling them their religion is shit. I advocate allowing it to be mocked in the press the same way Christianity and Judaism are mocked. Islam isn't some "special" religion whose adherents are allowed to bully the press into submission. They need to learn to take their lumps the same way the rest of the civilized Jews, Christians and Atheists do.

Simply put, we need to force Islam to get over itself. Its not that fucking important, and it should not be such a damned cancer on so many governments. These people need to learn to keep their goddamned religion at home. They need a separation of church and state. Fuck, even Israel observes a separation of church and state, and its the homeland of a fucking religion! Why do the Muslims always get a pass to act like barbarians? Is it soft bigotry of low expactations? Is it a handicapping for the perpetual underdog?

Fuck Islam's heightened sensitivities. They should be heldto the same standards as the rest of us, and fuck you if you're going to offer me some apologist claptrap excuses for why we should kiss their asses.

2.