Politics: Onward from New Hampshire

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
It's a stupid argument, and only the more stupid if you're playing these games. I don't care. You're right about all of it.

It isn't a game. I won this debate fairly by pointing out your inconsistent positions. Your first post talked about how science profs try to weed people out and the humanities profs are more welcoming of students with different majors. Somehow, this led you to conclude that grades do not reflect intrinsic merit.

Then you make the point that if a prof asks harder questions on a test, a B in that class means more than an A- in a class where the test questions were easier. I agree with you on this point, however, it contradicts your earlier post about grades not reflecting intrinsic merit.

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
You said "that the German people were unwilling to do anything to stop the Nazis." I pointed out that the left wing was armed and ready to stop Hitler's rise to power, but was waiting for a coup that never came. You may have missed that I was talking about the early 1930s. I also mentioned that the military planned a coup before Munich. The military tried again, and Hitler escaped an attempt on his life in 1944 through impressive luck. So, to the extent that you were saying anything other than that Germans were anti-Semitic, you were wrong. I choose not to argue with you on your larger point.

I meant unwilling to stop the Nazis from killing jews once the Nazis were in fact killing jews. I was not talking about the various groups vying for power in pre-WWII Germany. I am talking about how little was done to stop the killing of jews.

The various political groups competing with Hitler for the affections of the german people prior to WWII were competing to establish their own power or because they didn't agree with a war. They weren't trying to save the jews.

Yeah, I saw Schiendler's list, too. The reason it was a story that was made into a movie is because it was so fucking rare that a German would have done something like that to save jews.

[Not Me]

http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAKY07MTRD.html

Spain's Ruling Party Losing Ground in Elections After Terror Attacks

By Ed McCullough
Published: Mar 14, 2004

MADRID, Spain (AP) - The ruling Popular Party looked headed for defeat in Sunday's general elections overshadowed by the Madrid terror bombings, with the opposition Socialists poised to score spectacular gains, according to partial results.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Me
It isn't a game. I won this debate fairly by pointing out your inconsistent positions. Your first post talked about how science profs try to weed people out and the humanities profs are more welcoming of students with different majors. Somehow, this led you to conclude that grades do not reflect intrinsic merit.

Then you make the point that if a prof asks harder questions on a test, a B in that class means more than an A- in a class where the test questions were easier. I agree with you on this point, however, it contradicts your earlier post about grades not reflecting intrinsic merit.

I'm not seeing an inconsistent position. My point was that grades are artifacts of grading systems, and have no intrinsic significance. This is seen in the fact that a B in a class with one professor may mean more than an A- in the same class with another professor.

I meant unwilling to stop the Nazis from killing jews once the Nazis were in fact killing jews. I was not talking about the various groups vying for power in pre-WWII Germany. I am talking about how little was done to stop the killing of jews.

The various political groups competing with Hitler for the affections of the german people prior to WWII were competing to establish their own power or because they didn't agree with a war. They weren't trying to save the jews.

Yeah, I saw Schiendler's list, too. The reason it was a story that was made into a movie is because it was so fucking rare that a German would have done something like that to save jews.

I haven't seen Schindler's List, and am sorry that I was unable to divine your thoughts from your post. There are Germans who died trying to stop Hitler, including many privileged officers who were executed in Plotzensee after the bomb in the Wolf's Lair failed to kill Hitler. Germans generally accept the country's collective responsibility for the Holocaust. One might further note, however, that there are not many examples of a citizenry successfully standing up to a totalitarian government.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
I'm not seeing an inconsistent position. My point was that grades are artifacts of grading systems, and have no intrinsic significance. This is seen in the fact that a B in a class with one professor may mean more than an A- in the same class with another professor.

I think that shows that grades are not a perfect measurement of merit, which is different from saying they have no intrinsic significance.

However, your GPA does reflect your educational performance fairly well, although it is not perfect. This is especially true when you compare a person with a 3.8 to a 2.5, although less true when you compare a person with a 3.8 to one with a 3.6.

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
There are Germans who died trying to stop Hitler, including many privileged officers who were executed in Plotzensee after the bomb in the Wolf's Lair failed to kill Hitler.

But why were they trying to stop him? By and large those who wanted to stop him were interested less in the jews and more in either their own quest for power or their recognition that they would lose this war and that would be bad for Germany. That was my point.

I don't dispute that there were Germans trying to stop Hitler. Some of them saw the potential outcome of losing the war and what it would mean for germany. I just don't think the opposition to Hitler that existed was based on what was being done to the jews.

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
Germans generally accept the country's collective responsibility for the Holocaust.

So they agree with me, too.

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
One might further note, however, that there are not many examples of a citizenry successfully standing up to a totalitarian government.

I agree but I still maintain that even if the germans had tried to stand up to Hitler, it would have been because they predicted that the war would have a disasterous outcome (i.e., they would lose) and that would wreak havoc on their lives for several decades. Or because they were being oppressed. But it wouldn't have been because they gave a damn about what was being done to the jews.

[Not Me]

http://www.tulane.edu/~so-inst/dindex.htm

Ty, you might want to read Deathly Silence: Everyday People in the Holocaust.

"The Nazis did not discard the past, they built on it. They did not begin a development. They completed it."
- Raul Hilberg , Holocaust historian

[Not Me]

Oh and if you want to check out what was going on in America pre-WWII, you can read Henry Ford's The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem.

Link:

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/ant...tism/ford.html
http://www.ety.com/berlin/ford1.htm

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Not Me
Oh and if you want to check out what was going on in America pre-WWII, you can read Henry Ford's The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem.

I agree it was a suck-ass menswear catalog, but I'd hardly call it the world's foremost problem.

[Atticus Grinch]

Not quite Blow Me for America Day, but close.

Topless protest against Ashcroft called "Spot the Boob."

Needless to say, I will be there.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
I agree it was a suck-ass menswear catalog, but I'd hardly call it the world's foremost problem.

Excuse me. I paid my way through college with i.M. modeling gigs. I'm sure it wasn't the high brow reading you like, but I know some people sayed "up" with my issue.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Not Me
http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGAKY07MTRD.html

I meant to post this earlier. The Europeans will never learn. They are truly cowards who think that appeasement will really work this time if only given a chance. I hope and pray everyday that if Kerry wins the election he will continue prosecuting the war on terror, because that is civilized society's only hope.*

*not meant to be a partisan post, I'm just not clear on what Kerry's stance on the war is.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I meant to post this earlier. The Europeans will never learn. They are truly cowards who think that appeasement will really work this time if only given a chance. I hope and pray everyday that if Kerry wins the election he will continue prosecuting the war on terror, because that is civilized society's only hope.*

*not meant to be a partisan post, I'm just not clear on what Kerry's stance on the war is.

yeah yeah yeah, but the real question is, are you participating in the 2nd Annual Boobies Against Ashcroft March? PARTICIPATING, not spectating.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Not Me
I don't think that it is all that hard to figure out where the line is.

I'm not asking where it is, but where it should be. I submit that a world in which tv and radio is subject to a "dinner at a partner's house with em's wife" standard would be a world not worth living in.

Originally posted by Not Me
I know but comparing the FCC to Nazis is over the top. If the FCC gets heavy handed and starts enforcing the regulations for less egregious offenses, people like me (who are OK with censoring graphic descriptions of people beating off) will call on Congress to reign in the FCC.

I may have to rethink my position on an arts education, because you did not follow my analogy. I wasn't comparing the FCC to Nazis, I was using the 60 year old slippery slope argument of "first they came for X, and I did nothing. Then they came for y and I did nothing" etc, and comparing it to "first radio, then cable and internet, etc."

Originally posted by Not Me Cite please.

how bout this http://www.italian-american.com/wwii.htm [took me 2.7 seconds to google]

[bilmore]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I meant to post this earlier. The Europeans will never learn. They are truly cowards who think that appeasement will really work this time if only given a chance.

Probably Al Queda's most successful move.

[bilmore]

Re: Spain's surrender:

"So the choice for pluralist democracies is simple: You can join Bush in taking the war to the terrorists, to their redoubts and sponsoring regimes. Despite the sneers that terrorism is a phenomenon and you can't wage war against a phenomenon, in fact you can – as the Royal Navy did very successfully against the malign phenomena of an earlier age, piracy and slavery.

Or you can stick your head in the sand and paint a burqa on your butt. But they'll blow it up anyway. "

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I meant to post this earlier. The Europeans will never learn. They are truly cowards who think that appeasement will really work this time if only given a chance. I hope and pray everyday that if Kerry wins the election he will continue prosecuting the war on terror, because that is civilized society's only hope.*

Maybe they just think that invading Iraq had nothing to do with the war on terrorism.

eta: Or was the wrong way to prosecute the war on terrorism.