Politics: Where we struggle to kneel in the muck.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
Let the eagle soooooooooar.



TM

if you've never handled a timber rattler or drank strychnine, maybe you should just keep quiet on the isssue?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Stick to the topic. I have already conceeded that Bush is a fiscal liberal. The point we were discussing is whether Kerry is a liberal, which you don't want to concede for some reason.

I believe you have conceded two things:

(1) Bush is a fiscal liberal (and I believe other conservatives on the board have conceded this in the past); and

(2) Kerry is not a liberal in the Roosevelt/New Deal sense.

Frankly, I've always viewed the "L" label that Bush is trying to pin on Kerry to be point (2).

Now, my view: the prevailing perspective of the Democratic party today, with Kerry right in the mainstream of Democratic thought is that yes, there are things we would like government to do and we see a role for government in helping people. At the same time, we will help the most people through keeping the economy going and exercising fiscal discpline (Kerry's statement in the debate that in putting together his plan he has cut back on what he wanted to do because of fiscal restraints) and through empowering others rather than expanding government.

Health care, for example. Kerry is explicitly rejecting a single payor system or a socialized healthcare system, but is suggesting that legislation specifically authorizing the creation of purchasing pools for pharmaceuticals (not necessarily run by the government, by the way) can help, as can opening enrollment to the government's own health care program to the public (with cost dependent in part on ability to pay).

You're going to say it's liberal because it involves government. I'm going to say it is an attempt to practically solve a problem in our country with the participation of government, and that it is a far cry from a New Deal style social security entitlement program or from a government owned business like the post office.

So, Kerry's a Democrat, just as Clinton was. Is he a liberal? Well, tell me what a liberal is - nonperjoratively.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop


If the topic is, Kerry: liberal or moderate?, what should we be discussing -- taxing or spending?

We should be discussing both and then some. Kerry will spend at least as much and more likely more than Bush and will raise taxes to do it. My guess is that the deficits under Kerry will be about equal to Bush's current, but who the hell knows. In any event, big spending + hire taxes = liberal. Math is hard, but that equation is easy.

I brought up the other items because he I think they make him a liberal as well. This will sound trite and is an over simplification, but anyone who believes that government is better suited to solve an individuals problems than the individual is a liberal.

Socially, he is a liberal, but I agree with him on some of the social issues (e.g, gay marriage).

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan

Additionally, I don't think anyone can assess in a vacuum whether or not someone will be likely to raise taxes. Certainly Bush I ran on the idea that it wasn't going to happen, and that certainly came back to bite him in the ass.

What vacuum? He said he is going to raise taxes.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
This is, to me, the most interesting thing that Sullivan has written since his August "surprise":



Interesting theory, but looking at Kerry's record post-Nam, Gulf 1 and the present, I just don't see it in him.

etft -- t.s.

Goddammit, Slave, take me off ignore!

I offered this theory some time ago, and got nothing.

And I think you should buy it. The GOP Congress will drive foreign policy so hard in a Kerry Administration, odds are better than even that it'll be the first time we see actually see Congress declare war in the last 50 years.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by sgtclub
That would be true if I was a member of the "middle class."

Don't worry. If you're a working lawyer making over $200,000 per year in a high tax state like California with a mortgage, it is likely that the AMT ate your Bush tax cut (it did mine).

So, the rollback probably won't hit you, because the cut got cut already.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by sgtclub
What vacuum? He said he is going to raise taxes.

With whose Congress?

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
I believe you have conceded two things:

(1) Bush is a fiscal liberal (and I believe other conservatives on the board have conceded this in the past); and

(2) Kerry is not a liberal in the Roosevelt/New Deal sense.

Frankly, I've always viewed the "L" label that Bush is trying to pin on Kerry to be point (2).

Now, my view: the prevailing perspective of the Democratic party today, with Kerry right in the mainstream of Democratic thought is that yes, there are things we would like government to do and we see a role for government in helping people. At the same time, we will help the most people through keeping the economy going and exercising fiscal discpline (Kerry's statement in the debate that in putting together his plan he has cut back on what he wanted to do because of fiscal restraints) and through empowering others rather than expanding government.

Health care, for example. Kerry is explicitly rejecting a single payor system or a socialized healthcare system, but is suggesting that legislation specifically authorizing the creation of purchasing pools for pharmaceuticals (not necessarily run by the government, by the way) can help, as can opening enrollment to the government's own health care program to the public (with cost dependent in part on ability to pay).

You're going to say it's liberal because it involves government. I'm going to say it is an attempt to practically solve a problem in our country with the participation of government, and that it is a far cry from a New Deal style social security entitlement program or from a government owned business like the post office.

So, Kerry's a Democrat, just as Clinton was. Is he a liberal? Well, tell me what a liberal is - nonperjoratively.

We can agree that he is somewhere between Clinton and Roosevelt.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by sgtclub
This will sound trite and is an over simplification, but anyone who believes that government is better suited to solve an individuals problems than the individual is a liberal.

Is the health care system an individual's problem?

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
With whose Congress?

and is a rollback of the tax cuts an increase?

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by sgtclub
We can agree that he is somewhere between Clinton and Roosevelt.

Frankly, he may be to the right of Clinton. But he's not far off one way or the other.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Don't worry. If you're a working lawyer making over $200,000 per year in a high tax state like California with a mortgage, it is likely that the AMT ate your Bush tax cut (it did mine).

So, the rollback probably won't hit you, because the cut got cut already.

It didn't last year, but it's not really about me. It's about the principle.

[SlaveNoMore]

ThurgreedMarshall
Let the eagle soooooooooar.



TM

"Everybody with me...

Freres Jacques,
Freres Jacques
A dorme vous?
A dorme vous..."

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
and is a rollback of the tax cuts an increase?

Are you kidding? If you need me to define a tax increase for you I will.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Are you kidding? If you need me to define a tax increase for you I will.

With your definition of "liberal" I probably need to take immersion courses, because it's very clear that we don't speak the same language.