Fashion Board 1-08-04 through 02-03-04

[bold_n_brazen]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Hey, I bet the kid would rather be around.

The marriage was probably over long before this event, and she salvaged what she could. Ten years of her life and all she asked for was a few good swimmers. The opportunity may not come again any time soon.

I disagree and I disagree,

First, I think you are destined to be a fucked up kid if your father never wants to lay eyes on you.

Second, the marriage is over because she betrayed him. It is actually likely that if she had just waited, he would have agreed to make a baby with her, because he was crazy in love with her.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by robustpuppy
This means the one who wants the baby has to go back out there into the dating pool and find somebody who wants one, too;

Sounds like she did.

(ETA: Oops. So, this wasn't the one who went out and had somebody else's, huh?)

[bold_n_brazen]

Originally posted by NotFromHere
That sounds like a soap opera plot.
Still, if he asked for 3 months to decide, he should have taken some initiative in that department knowing what she wanted.
Of course this type of behavior makes all women look like lying conniving bitches.

No. You know what makes all women look like conniving bitches? When one woman does something so atrocious and all the other women say "Hey, shouldn't he have been using birth control himself, knowing what she wanted? After all, he should have known that the woman he'd been married to for ten years was a conniving bitch with no impulse control...because after all, she's a woman."

If I said I wanted a baby now and my husband said he'd like to think about it for a couple of months, I would never take it upon myself to stop using birth control. And my husband shouldn't have to worry that I might. Because I am not a conniving bitch. And neither are most women.

The fact that this happened to my friend is not evidence that men are stupid and irresponsible or that women are conniving bitches. It is evidence that one woman committed an act of betrayal of trust, and that one man had his trust betrayed.

[robustpuppy]

Originally posted by NotFromHere
That sounds like a soap opera plot.
Still, if he asked for 3 months to decide, he should have taken some initiative in that department knowing what she wanted.

Yes. Assumption of the risk. This doesn't mean she wasn't wrong, bnb, but that sometimes one has to see when it's necessary to protect oneself.

Of course this type of behavior makes all women look like lying conniving bitches.

No it doesn't. It makes her look like one.

You don't like Sebby's generalizations; don't make your own.

[purse junkie]

Originally posted by NotFromHere
That sounds like a soap opera plot.
Still, if he asked for 3 months to decide, he should have taken some initiative in that department knowing what she wanted.
Of course this type of behavior makes all women look like lying conniving bitches.

Agreed. Plus, if you really never want kids, allowing your wife to undertake the health risks of the Pill (yes, I know, there're benefits too) for all time instead of having a simple procedure at a doctor's office yourself is pretty fucking selfish.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by robustpuppy
Yes. Assumption of the risk. .

Well, that's a handy argument to justify never permitting divorces. Did Not Me get your password?

[bold_n_brazen]

Originally posted by purse junkie
Agreed. Plus, if you really never want kids, allowing your wife to undertake the health risks of the Pill (yes, I know, there're benefits too) for all time instead of having a simple procedure at a doctor's office yourself is pretty fucking selfish.

You know what? This is fucking retarded.

How on earth can you all make this out to be the guy's fault?

Man-haters.

[str8outavannuys]

Originally posted by bold_n_brazen
I know someone. He has maintained at least for as long as I've known him that he does not desire any children. I have known him a long time.

His wife knew that he had no deisre for children when she married him 10 years ago. About 2 years ago, she approached him and said that she wanted to have a baby and if he wouldn't comply, she'd leave him. He asked her to give him 3 months to think about it.

She got pregnant during those 3 months. And had a baby.

Their marriage is over.

It is fair to change your mind. It is not fair to impose your will on people you love, or to saddle a child with the future fucked-up-ness of having a father who neither wanted nor wants you.

This is one of the saddest stories I have heard.

Based on what you've related (and no idea if it's true with them, but this post is about the general, not the specific), this sounds to me like this woman thought she could change her fiance/husband. This is a long-standing trope in western culture, and women are successful at it often enough to reinforce it. I think it's repugnant, and leads to a lot of women making bad choices. Maybe it's part of a rationalization process that the brain undertakes in order to (a) assauge the primal fear of ending up alone; and (b) deny/conceal from themself that the reason they're going to marry someone wrong for them is (a).

By the time intelligent people hit marriage age (25?), they should (and deep down, they do) know whether they want children or not, or they at least know that they haven't made up their mind. I think that it's ok to change one's mind on this around age 14-20, but by 25 you should be ready to commit to breed or not breed, or at least know that you're not certain. And you should pair up accordingly.

The whole "when i got married, I knew I didn't want children, and now I know the opposite" thing is, in a word, bullshit. Adults don't pull 180 degree turns about their most fundamental beliefs of who they are. At least, not without major life-altering experiences.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by bold_n_brazen

How on earth can you all make this out to be the guy's fault?

Sebby already explained: "women are just wired to" be that way.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Sebby already explained: "women are just wired to" be that way.

Run away.

[baltassoc]

Originally posted by bold_n_brazen
He believed she was still taking the pill.

She had decided not to.

This story must be surprisingly common. I was about to ask if the guy had a vasectomy, 'cause if so, I think I know him. But apparently not. Anyway, with my friend, the motivation for leaving was somewhat different, if more straight forward.

On a tangent, if one is a guy and feels strongly about never wanting to reproduce, there is a mechanism to ensure such an outcome. If you are not willing to take it, then there's got to be doubt in your mind.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by purse junkie
Agreed. Plus, if you really never want kids, allowing your wife to undertake the health risks of the Pill (yes, I know, there're benefits too) for all time instead of having a simple procedure at a doctor's office yourself is pretty fucking selfish.

Whooah now. You can't make a guy get snipped. Maybe he doesn't want kids with current wife, but what is they get divorced? He meets young, hot potential wife 2, who insists she'll have kids. If he's willing to compromise for #2, why should he have ruined his ability as a show for #1?

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
My God, I hope, errr... I EXPECT, that my daughter will have sown her oats before her wedding. I'd be terribly upset if any of my kids didn't get their ya yas out before settling down. And I'd be appalled if anyone thought my family so provincial and parochial that my daughter might be a virgin on her wedding day.

Uh, no you won't.*

I'd just as soon not know anything about the Not Bobette's sex life -- whether before, during, or after marriage or civil committment ceremony or whatever.

By the way, denial is not ignorance. One can say "I don't want to know anything about it, but if you're going to be stupid, don't be an idiot -- use a condom."

*Or maybe you will. What do I know? But thinking about this thing in the abstract is a lot different than thinking about it when little Sabrina Dangerfield introduces you to some dude (whoops -- I meant "cat") who reminds you of all of the smarmy Lotharios you knew at the DKE house.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by str8outavannuys
Based on what you've related (and no idea if it's true with them, but this post is about the general, not the specific), this sounds to me like this woman thought she could change her fiance/husband. This is a long-standing trope in western culture, and women are successful at it often enough to reinforce it. I think it's repugnant, and leads to a lot of women making bad choices. Maybe it's part of a rationalization process that the brain undertakes in order to (a) assauge the primal fear of ending up alone; and (b) deny/conceal from themself that the reason they're going to marry someone wrong for them is (a).

By the time intelligent people hit marriage age (25?), they should (and deep down, they do) know whether they want children or not, or they at least know that they haven't made up their mind. I think that it's ok to change one's mind on this around age 14-20, but by 25 you should be ready to commit to breed or not breed, or at least know that you're not certain. And you should pair up accordingly.

The whole "when i got married, I knew I didn't want children, and now I know the opposite" thing is, in a word, bullshit. Adults don't pull 180 degree turns about their most fundamental beliefs of who they are. At least, not without major life-altering experiences.

1. I don't think anyone hides fear of dying alone as a basis for marriage. Its there for a lot of people - they just don't admit it.

2. Fear of death and sexual desires/needs/frustrations together drive about 99.9% of human bahavior.

3. People don't know shit when they're 25. You never much of anything until you're pretty damn old, and even then you're just scratching the tip of the iceberg.

4. Your last sentence might be the stupidest thing I've seen on this board, my own shock-value rants included.

[robustpuppy]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Well, that's a handy argument to justify never permitting divorces. Did Not Me get your password?

What are you talking about? I never said divorce shouldn't be permitted or might not be appropriate.

My point is just that from the moment she said after all, I do want a baby, the fact that sex sometimes leads to pregnancy might have been on his mind again. I don't think he should have assumed his wife would betray him by stopping the pill without telling him she had, but ... would you fuck a woman who said she wanted a baby when you didn't want one without at least thinking about the reliability of the birth control?

And not for nothing, but what percentage of women get pregnant within 3 months of stopping the pill? Perhaps her motives weren't pure, but she never expected the result to be so quick.