Still Hating America.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
are you serious? we grabbed people who might know some stuff and were people who were hostile to us and torture them, they grab people who were not hostile to them and can't know anything of value to Iran and mistreat them to get them to excuse the initial seizure with a contrived confession-

you argue these are morally and legally equivalent? Do you see where i take a pass on arguing on some issues? That's why I have better credibility than say, oh, you.

What if the Brits had knowledge about an impending invasion or bombing of Iran? Would it have been OK under those circumstances?

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Gattigap
What if the Brits had knowledge about an impending invasion or bombing of Iran? Would it have been OK under those circumstances?

my work life involves litigating causes- I am afraid I cannot answer hypos.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Gattigap

look out if shape Shifter starts posting:

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
wow- on the second bottle already! we had

Yummy. Way better than a dead trout.

Diane, I wasn't posting drunk -- I just generally don't really read your posts that carefully.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
are you serious? we grabbed people who might know some stuff and were people who were hostile to us and torture them

Not all of them Hank. A noticeable percentage didn't seem to fall into that category.

For example, one of the four defended by my firm was an admitted "Dang, we got the wrong guy!"after being held for five years with no hearing. He is now living in a refugee camp in SE Europe while his impoverished family is living in another refugee camp in Africa -- expelled from home country and dead flat broke due to dad's arrest and (somewhat abusive) imprisonment.

Oops.

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
you argue these are morally and legally equivalent?

No, they are not morally equivalent (legality under international law is highly questionable), but I don't think either is acceptable.

S_A_M

[Adder]

Originally posted by sgtclub
The international organizations and the left condems this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...=1766&ito=1490

Sgt (Still holding my breath) Club

What color is the sky in your world? Of course the treatment of these captured soldiers was deplorable. Do you really expect the left to say otherwise?

[Adder]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
are you serious? we grabbed people who might know some stuff and were people who were hostile to us and torture them,

Beyond the point Ty has made (that its pretty fucking hard to hold others to a different standard than you hold yourself), observation suggests that the level of certainty behind your "might" was pretty fucking low.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
They certainly shouldn't have been treated in that way, but no apologist for the Bush Administration's torture policies can complain about this -- it's far milder than what we've been doing to a lot of people. Assuming that you condemn this stuff too, on what basis do you say that Iran shouldn't have been doing this stuff but that we can do the other?

That's not rebuttal.

The issue is whether what Iran did is appalling and should be condemned by the Left. The sub-issue is whether the Left is biased in how it reports on torture, and will give a pass to Iran while attacking the US about it in the press.

It's also significant to note that your "we do much worse in the US" argument is widely rejected by the Left when the Right over here uses the beheadings and other torture utilized by radical Islamists to show the tameness of our interrogation policies. You don;t get to reject an argument on one hand while using on the other.

Now, personally, I'm not appalled by what Iran did. We do similar things and should expect the same from our enemies. We can't have it both ways. But when the Left complains about torture, they should be evenhanded in noting both sides do it.

But they won't. Doesn't fit into their victim righteousness complex, which is the psychological underpinning of just about every move the Left makes.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Adder
What color is the sky in your world? Of course the treatment of these captured soldiers was deplorable. Do you really expect the left to say otherwise?

Nice try...

No, he expects the Left to say nothing. And he'll be right. The Left won't touch this issue because it's contrary to the way they want to see things and their goals.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Adder
Beyond the point Ty has made (that its pretty fucking hard to hold others to a different standard than you hold yourself), observation suggests that the level of certainty behind your "might" was pretty fucking low.

in your law school did you miss the days when they talked about the difference between negligent and intentional behaviors?

the only "point" Ty made last night is that his arguments get sloppy about 5 glasses into it. I'd recommend his kid have the "how much allowance do I get?" talk about a half hour after he hears the second cork pop.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Once you decide that it's OK to torture people if you seem some national security related reason to do so, how can be judgmental when other countries do the same? Maybe Iran thought they might learn something. Maybe they saw huge security benefits from the propaganda value of having those folks "apologize." Do I think they're morally equivalent? I think they're both odious. If you don't hold yourself to higher principles, you lose your standing to complain when others don't either.

My point was not to have the torture argument for the upteenth time. It was to point out the deafening silence condeming Iran for actions that are on par with some of the actions in which the US engaged.

[Diane_Keaton]

British members of the military say they were in waters that, it's agreed, are appropriate to be in and that Iranian forces attacked them, rounded them up and imprisoned them in Iran. I haven't heard the Iran President condemn the action of his troops. Is this not an act of war? Or do we give these nutjob countries more slack, since you know, Muslims are upset about Israel existing and such and we wouldn't want to rankle them further?

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
That's not rebuttal.

The issue is whether what Iran did is appalling and should be condemned by the Left. The sub-issue is whether the Left is biased in how it reports on torture, and will give a pass to Iran while attacking the US about it in the press.

It's also significant to note that your "we do much worse in the US" argument is widely rejected by the Left when the Right over here uses the beheadings and other torture utilized by radical Islamists to show the tameness of our interrogation policies. You don;t get to reject an argument on one hand while using on the other.

Now, personally, I'm not appalled by what Iran did. We do similar things and should expect the same from our enemies. We can't have it both ways. But when the Left complains about torture, they should be evenhanded in noting both sides do it.

But they won't. Doesn't fit into their victim righteousness complex, which is the psychological underpinning of just about every move the Left makes.

I'm on the left. I ignored the initial post because my thought was that only a jackass would not condemn torture or illegal seizure. I really didn't think that such a stupid comment was worthy of response.

Would you care to take a stab at guessing what it means that I'm now commenting?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
British members of the military say they were in waters that, it's agreed, are appropriate to be in and that Iranian forces attacked them, rounded them up and imprisoned them in Iran. I haven't heard the Iran President condemn the action of his troops. Is this not an act of war? Or do we give these nutjob countries more slack, since you know, Muslims are upset about Israel existing and such and we wouldn't want to rankle them further?

The Pueblo?