A Forum for Grinches and Ho-Ho-Hoes

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I think it’s very important to make charges like that ... I think it’s very important to combat this kind of activity in every way that you can, and I’m willing, as most people are not, to step forward in situations like this and take risks.”

I'm glad you've found another Quote, Hank. Embrace it with both arms and squeeze tight.

After the strength of the Dean quote started to fade, several of us became worried about you, because we all know that The Quote serves an essential role in your persona, in order to effectively communicate many things with one simple macro -- whether it's disdain for the broader political party tangentially connected to your quote, observations about mild hunger pangs you experience in the middle of the day, or simply to inform the rest of the class that you need to go pee.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Hunh. I thought it was like bees.

God, you are so last year.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by bilmore
I think it's an issue mostly because it's been used to deflect popular anger from the ME despots. If you subjugate your people and trash their lives, it's good to give them something external to hate. Israel has been a good target for that, and the constant whine from Arafat has gone far in helping the rest of the ME keep the lid on. But, once (if?) the Palestinians start becoming a merged society, a lot of that goes away.

As to, do we really want democracy in those tyrant states, I think we do, and it's gonna be hell for a while once they get there. It's like working an industrial pressure vessel, and realizing that the relief is stuck closed - you know you have to knock if free, and there's gonna be a dangerous explosive mess when you do that, but you need to do it, because otherwise the pressure's only going up.

A couple things: this stuff about Palestinian's becoming a "merged" society, who wants them to merge with whom? A few Palestinians may cling to the notion that Israel should become a Democratic secular state, but I don't think the Jewish Israelis want a merger - and the demographic shift that would go with it.

And the explosion -- are you suggesting that it's no big deal if this new democratic Iraq decides to take the offensive against Israel? Or are you thinking the explosion may blow somewhere else?

[Spanky]

Originally posted by bilmore
As to, do we really want democracy in those tyrant states, I think we do, and it's gonna be hell for a while once they get there. It's like working an industrial pressure vessel, and realizing that the relief is stuck closed - you know you have to knock if free, and there's gonna be a dangerous explosive mess when you do that, but you need to do it, because otherwise the pressure's only going up.

I agree with you 100%. That is why I consider myself a Neo-Con. However, I don't think my fellow Neo-Cons really appreciate the ramification of what they wish for. I don't think a democratic middle east is in the US short term strategic interests (long term yes - short term no). On one hand I would like to see the middle East democratic, but if it does become democratic I will really fear for the security of Israel. In other words, for the safety of the Jews in Israel. I am afriad that these jews that have been fleeing persecution all over the world are going from the frying pan into the fire. Right now the US Immigration turns down Jewish applications for Assylum from religious persecution (like from Russia) because we believe they can go to Israel. I don't think Isreal is a safe place for Jews and we should let them come here if they want to.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Spanky
....and then Isreal will find itself surrounding by one hugely hostile Arab nation.

Or, the rest of the Arab nation could find itself with one huge and hostile Shi'a empire to its east, looking to spread the word.

At the moment, my greatest fear is that an Iranian/Iraqi polity could result from pushing this little domino; I'm not sure whether Iraqi Shi'as see themselves more as Arab or Shi'a. Of course, this conflict is something Israel could probably live with for the moment.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
A couple things: this stuff about Palestinian's becoming a "merged" society, who wants them to merge with whom? A few Palestinians may cling to the notion that Israel should become a Democratic secular state, but I don't think the Jewish Israelis want a merger - and the demographic shift that would go with it.

And the explosion -- are you suggesting that it's no big deal if this new democratic Iraq decides to take the offensive against Israel? Or are you thinking the explosion may blow somewhere else?

"Merged" was probably not a good word choice. I simply mean, it becomes a functioning society within the larger world, not standing out because of conflict but interacting with and comfortable next to its neighbors, with no sense of some outstanding wrong that needs righting.

I think the explosion is going to be big, and I'm really hoping that the Israel-Palestinian conflict can be turned down to a simmer by the time it happens. I agree that the Arab world does view Israel as the interloper, the invader of holy land - but, at the same time, I think that if the Palestinians aren't actively pushing that theme, there's room for it to go away (in a relative sense - there will always be SOME anger about it.) Then, the steam will point elsewhere - maybe to the corrupt influences that have kept most of society poor and powerless. Frankly, I see an initial rise in Marxism in the region.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
are you suggesting that it's no big deal if this new democratic Iraq decides to take the offensive against Israel?

there's only one reason Iraq or Syria or whatever doesn't "take the offensive against Israel." they know they would suffer a devastating and humiliating defeat.

the best solution to the whole problem is getting to some Pali state and letting people move beyond. It may take a generation, but sooner the hate has to lessen especially if the peple have some hope for bettering temselves otherwise.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Spanky
I agree with you 100%. That is why I consider myself a Neo-Con. However, I don't think my fellow Neo-Cons really appreciate the ramification of what they wish for. I don't think a democratic middle east is in the US short term strategic interests (long term yes - short term no). On one hand I would like to see the middle East democratic, but if it does become democratic I will really fear for the security of Israel. In other words, for the safety of the Jews in Israel. I am afriad that these jews that have been fleeing persecution all over the world are going from the frying pan into the fire. Right now the US Immigration turns down Jewish applications for Assylum from religious persecution (like from Russia) because we believe they can go to Israel. I don't think Isreal is a safe place for Jews and we should let them come here if they want to.

I do have a strong fear that the only way we're going to ultimately make the ME into a peaceful good neighbor is going to involve moving Israelites. I have no idea how this could be done. Another Mandate? Give them Miami?

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Or, the rest of the Arab nation could find itself with one huge and hostile Shi'a empire to its east, looking to spread the word.

At the moment, my greatest fear is that an Iranian/Iraqi polity could result from pushing this little domino; I'm not sure whether Iraqi Shi'as see themselves more as Arab or Shi'a. Of course, this conflict is something Israel could probably live with for the moment.

Obviously, this is not scientific, but I have traveled a great deal in the middle east and many of my business partners are middle eastern, and I would say nationalism runs deeper. During the Iran-Iraq war Khomeini tried to get the Shia in southern Iraq to arise but they did not. It seems that you have an affinity for people that speak the same language as you as opposed to people of the same faith. I have know Arabs of many faiths and they all hang out together. I have also know many persians of different faiths and they all hang out together. You don't see Arabs and Persians hanging out much. Therefore I don't see Shia Iraq breaking off and joining Persia.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Spanky
Obviously, this is not scientific, but I have traveled a great deal in the middle east and many of my business partners are middle eastern, and I would say nationalism runs deeper. During the Iran-Iraq war Khomeini tried to get the Shia in southern Iraq to arise but they did not. It seems that you have an affinity for people that speak the same language as you as opposed to people of the same faith. I have know Arabs of many faiths and they all hang out together. I have also know many persians of different faiths and they all hang out together. You don't see Arabs and Persians hanging out much. Therefore I don't see Shia Iraq breaking off and joining Persia.

Agree. They're actually the same faith - just recognize different sets of leaders. There are more points in common than not. It's a small and artificial distinction that's been amplified for personal gain.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by bilmore
It's a small and artificial distinction that's been amplified for personal gain.

New Board Motto.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Spanky
Obviously, this is not scientific, but I have traveled a great deal in the middle east and many of my business partners are middle eastern, and I would say nationalism runs deeper. During the Iran-Iraq war Khomeini tried to get the Shia in southern Iraq to arise but they did not. It seems that you have an affinity for people that speak the same language as you as opposed to people of the same faith. I have know Arabs of many faiths and they all hang out together. I have also know many persians of different faiths and they all hang out together. You don't see Arabs and Persians hanging out much. Therefore I don't see Shia Iraq breaking off and joining Persia.

I think the increasing successes of Radical Islam, however, change the equation, and lead to the possibility of some form of very close alliance between Iran and either all of Iraq or just the Shi'a portion.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by bilmore
I do have a strong fear that the only way we're going to ultimately make the ME into a peaceful good neighbor is going to involve moving Israelites. I have no idea how this could be done. Another Mandate? Give them Miami?

I am not Jewish so I don't have a bias here, but sending all those Russian jews to Israel was a huge waste. They were the educated elite of Russia. Now you have doctors and concert pianists working as janitors in Isreal. Israel has too many educated people. Most of these Russian Jews tried to come here and we turned them down. I don't know about anyone else, but I think we could always use more cultured, educated and talented people. Anyone seen Jerry Springer lately?

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
I think the increasing successes of Radical Islam, however, change the equation, and lead to the possibility of some form of very close alliance between Iran and either all of Iraq or just the Shi'a portion.

Ain't that the truth. My position may just be wishful thinking.

[Skeks in the city]

Originally posted by bilmore
I do have a strong fear that the only way we're going to ultimately make the ME into a peaceful good neighbor is going to involve moving Israelites. I have no idea how this could be done. Another Mandate? Give them Miami?

Isn't a lot of the midwest unpopulated or getting there?