A Forum for Grinches and Ho-Ho-Hoes

[Adder]

Originally posted by bilmore
It's like working an industrial pressure vessel, and realizing that the relief is stuck closed - you know you have to knock if free, and there's gonna be a dangerous explosive mess when you do that, but you need to do it, because otherwise the pressure's only going up.

um.. yeah.. just like that...

Ad(I know what you mean, but, um, huh?)der

[Adder]

Originally posted by Spanky
If you really undestand the Arab view, you can see that they see Israel as a foreigh occupation of Arab land. They view the fact that original residents of palestine are not allowed to return and any western jew can go there as a form of ethnic cleansing of Arab land.

It's not the Arab view. It is the truth.

Which, btw, does not make it inappropriate.

If you have democratic countries in Arabia that have to respond to the public's wishes they will be less inclined to work with Israel. The current governments have practical reasons to work with (Even if behind the scenes) with Isreal. Democratic governments, that need the support of their populations, will have less of an incentive to work with the Israelis. Democracy may bring Arab political unity, and then Isreal will find itself surrounding by one hugely hostile Arab nation.

Oddly, I am more hopeful of the effect of democracy. But your point is not unfounded.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Cf. Zogby (yes, the pollster oft cited on these boards), What Arabs Think -- this is a 2002 book based on extensive research and polling.

We're going to start looking to Spanky for a conservative realist's perspective on the board, Clubby, and assume you're giving us the neo-con wish-think angle.

Unless, that is, you can come up with as good a reality-based cite for the contrary position, that Democracy in Iraq is leading (not theoretically will lead, sometime after Bush has left office, after we are all dead, or once Global warming has put Washington under 10 feet of water) to a softening of attitudes toward Israel.

(editted to fix spelling and insert additional vituperative little zingers).

I don't know how many times I have to say it, but I am not a conservative.

I thought he was referring to something other than the general feeling of Arabs, i.e., that there is something inherent in the new government that made it especially antagonistic to Israel.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Spanky
Democracy may bring Arab political unity, and then Isreal will find itself surrounding by one hugely hostile Arab nation.

As opposed to where it is today?

[Adder]

Originally posted by bilmore
I do have a strong fear that the only way we're going to ultimately make the ME into a peaceful good neighbor is going to involve moving Israelites. I have no idea how this could be done. Another Mandate? Give them Miami?

Let's give them the whole state of Florida. It sucks anyway. One giant strip mall. But the weather is good.

[Adder]

Originally posted by bilmore
Agree. They're actually the same faith - just recognize different sets of leaders. There are more points in common than not. It's a small and artificial distinction that's been amplified for personal gain.

You understate the importance of the proper succession of the caliphate.

eta: That's meant as a joke. I know its not funny, but never say i don't mock all religions equally.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by bilmore
I do have a strong fear that the only way we're going to ultimately make the ME into a peaceful good neighbor is going to involve moving Israelites. I have no idea how this could be done. Another Mandate? Give them Miami?

Adam Carolla on Stern about 10/1/2001. give the jews the Baja desert.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Adam Carolla on Stern about 10/1/2001. give the jews the Baja desert.

Danger there is, they revitalize the entire Mexican countryside, eclipse us in economic performance, and we become simply a more boring Canada.

(I've always been impressed with Israeli econ performance in tough areas.)

[Adder]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Bet for board support March 2006?

I am a sufficient deadbeat as to not know how much money that is, but you are on.

Note, however, that I said there would be U.S. troops in Syria and Lebanon, not that we would necessarily invade.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by sgtclub
As opposed to where it is today?

The problem is the Arabs have never been able to act in concert thereby making them pretty much powerless. In addition, Egypt - against its peoples desires - has reached an accomadation with israel. A united Arab state would have all the wealth and military technology of the Gulf states (and possibly Algeria, Iraq and Libya), Egypts large military force with its professional officer corp, all the Palestianians of Jordan that can't wait to fight, the sympathizers in the West Bank and Gaza, the strategic advantage of completely surrounding Israel and the ability to coordinate all those assets under a unified military command. If that wasn't enough, they could cut off any allies of Isreal from 80 percent of the known world Oil Reserves. A united democratic Arab state is pretty much Israel's worst nightmare.

[Spanky]

BTW - I asked about a Democrat Arabia at a forum where both Wolfowitz and Bill Kristol were on the panel. Their position was

1) They did not believe that Arab nationalisim was very strong and was being replaced by local nationalism (Iraqi, Syrian nationalism etc.)
2) Anti - Israeli sentiment was being whipped up by the dictatorial regimes and therefore would not be as strong in a Democracy
3) Once the Arabs started making money they would be less inclined to worry about Israel. And in the interest of becoming prosperous they would decide to trade with Israel.

I have a lot of respect for both these men but in this case I don't think they could be more wrong. I think their love and hope for the state of Israel has twisted their perception of the situation.

Originally posted by Adder
um.. yeah.. just like that...

Ad(I know what you mean, but, um, huh?)der

Most of Bilmore's better similes come from his days in the Merchant Marine, circa 1934.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Spanky
Wolfowitz and Bill Kristol did not believe that Arab nationalisim was very strong and was being replaced by local nationalism (Iraqi, Syrian nationalism etc.).

I am afraid that a secular Arab nationalism is being replaced by fundamentalist Islam. The changes in some of these countries has been fairly dramatic.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by ironweed
Most of Bilmore's better similes come from his days in the Merchant Marine, circa 1934.

You laugh, from ignorance of course, but of my times, my time afore' the mast was the best of all of them.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I am afraid that a secular Arab nationalism is being replaced by fundamentalist Islam. The changes in some of these countries has been fairly dramatic.

Everyone is afraid of this. The question is what to do. The effort to start democracy in the ME is perhaps somewhat desparate- but the alternative is to wait for the fundamentalists to get so strongly entrenched that some massive war becomes inevitable. I fear my grandchildren will see some version of WWIII with (Islam v. The rest) as the sides.
Don't you- or is there some other solution you see.?

And to the "We are making it worse" crowd- before Iraq Osama was one of the most popular names for baby boys in Islamic countries, 80% of Saudi TV audiences believe the US did 9/11 to itself, etc. "Worse" needs to be seen in context.