Politics: Onward from New Hampshire

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
OK, let's look at what different people knew, believed, suspected, and wanted proof on prior to invading Iraq:

We all know Iraq used chemical weapons, that is, WMD, in the war with Iran.

We also all know that Iraq used such weapons in putting down their own people during the early 90s.

We know Iraq invaded Kuwait.

We know that Iraq violated the no-fly zones.

We know Iraq agreed to dismantle weapons and to UN inspections, that these inspections had ceased.

We also know that the inspections ceased because SH kicked the inspectors out of the country.

We also know that the intelligence agencies of every country in the Western world believed SH had WMD after the inspectors were kicked out.

We also know that SH was bribing many of the UN diplomats with money he received from the oil for food program.

We also know that many countries that were voting on the war did not have purely the world's interests in mind; rather, they were voting to protect their debt and business contracts.

I'm not saying that there weren't legitimate arguments to be against the war, but to say that the vote, or the UN itself, is anything other than a complete fucking farce is just wrong and naieve.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
If you misheard Blix and he was saying that earlier he had no doubt that WMD would be found, then there's no problem. I don't know what he said, but it's hard to figure out what he meant unless you've got a quote.

Note that because I gave you your out, this does not count as a win under the Chinaski scoring system.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
We also know that the inspections ceased because SH kicked the inspectors out of the country.

We also know that the intelligence agencies of every country in the Western world believed SH had WMD after the inspectors were kicked out.

This is simply not true of the inspections just before the war.

We also know that SH was bribing many of the UN diplomats with money he received from the oil for food program.

Whoop de doo.

We also know that many countries that were voting on the war did not have purely the world's interests in mind; rather, they were voting to protect their debt and business contracts.

I'm filing this one in my circular Halliburton file.

I'm not saying that there weren't legitimate arguments to be against the war, but to say that the vote, or the UN itself, is anything other than a complete fucking farce is just wrong and naieve.

You don't seem to be paying attention to what we're saying, which has to do with our knowledge about WMD when we invaded.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Note that because I gave you your out, this does not count as a win under the Chinaski scoring system.

Game called on account of rain.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Note that because I gave you your out, this does not count as a win under the Chinaski scoring system.

you ain't a judge. This win was mine, solo, unless Ty comes up with something by 5EST. I'm also worried because Atticus' bathroom break is coming up, and he always does some heavy thinking then.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by sgtclub
We also know that the intelligence agencies of every country in the Western world believed SH had WMD after the inspectors were kicked out.

What was that again?

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I'm also worried because Atticus' bathroom break is coming up, and he always does some heavy thinking then.

Be not afraid. Today, particle physics is back up in the rotation. You're just lucky this isn't Thursday or Sunday.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Seems like pre-emptive engagement doctrine applies and the Russians are within their rights according to the Bush administration. Or are we the only one's permitted to apply that doctrine?

It isn't a matter of whether it is within anyone's theoretical rights or not. It is a practical matter of getting caught doing something like that and either having the military power or diplomatic ties to get your people out.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Not Me
It isn't a matter of whether it is within anyone's theoretical rights or not. It is a practical matter of getting caught doing something like that and either having the military power or diplomatic ties to get your people out.

Next time, they should call 1-800-DCH-ENEY, report the terrorist, and let the guys with the big guns take care of it.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Reactions like this will drive others from supporting us as well. The perception out there in the world is that we are looking for geopolitical gain and refusing to consider any interests or concerns of our allies.

First Point:

Call me culturally insensitive if you wish, but I found it pretty damn odd and kind of funny when I saw pictures of the "protests" in Spain last week and over the weekend.
The marches featured hundreds of thousands of people, all holding their hands over their head as a gesture to say "STOP!" to violence. Of course, over here, that looks like the sign for surrender.

Actually, I find the whole idea of a"protest march" against an atrocity rather odd -- I guess we do memorial services instead.

Second Point:

I also find the decision of the new Spanish government regrettable (if they actually follow through). However, given that the Socialists ran on the "out of Iraq" platform for the whole campaign, it is a bit much to expect them to reverse their position after winning the election because the Popular Party's Iraq policy actually did lead to suffering and/or death for hundreds of Spaniards.

BTW Bilmore -- looks like you were incorrect to suggest that the Spanish government wasn't holding back information on the identity and affiliation of the suspected bombers. Don't worry, you still have a few months to recycle dismissive remarks about the "Bush Lied" brigade.

S_A_M

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy


But no one knew whether he had them or not. That was kind of the point of inspections. And most of the world wanted those inspections to continue, so we would be acting on something other than a suspicion.

You left out the fact that we know (knew) that Hussein repeatedly stymied the weapons inspectors who were sent to ascertain whether the WMD continued to exist. It was not simply a "give them more time" issue. Had Hussein allowed the inspections to continue apace from when they started in teh mid-1990s (or however long ago it was), rather than continually shucking jiving/dodging and weaving, it would not have come to the point it did, with the US saying "this is bullshit, he's had his chance(s)."

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
First Point:

Call me culturally insensitive if you wish, but I found it pretty damn odd and kind of funny when I saw pictures of the "protests" in Spain last week and over the weekend.
The marches featured hundreds of thousands of people, all holding their hands over their head as a gesture to say "STOP!" to violence. Of course, over here, that looks like the sign for surrender.

Actually, I find the whole idea of a"protest march" against an atrocity rather odd -- I guess we do memorial services instead.

I shared this reaction at first. Then I thought about it this way: Our first reaction on 9/11 was to shut down our places of work and all head home. We hid. For days, even weeks and months afterwards we were frightened, and lived in heightened security listening to fighter planes circling in the night.

The Spanish went out in the street, and basically said, look, bomb away you assholes, we remain opposed to violence. You will not take our streets and cities from us.

They then went to the polls and told their government they also remained opposed to stupidity, their view of the Spanish government's foreign policy, and lying, something just coming to light during the day of the vote.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
You left out the fact that we know (knew) that Hussein repeatedly stymied the weapons inspectors who were sent to ascertain whether the WMD continued to exist. It was not simply a "give them more time" issue. Had Hussein allowed the inspections to continue apace from when they started in teh mid-1990s (or however long ago it was), rather than continually shucking jiving/dodging and weaving, it would not have come to the point it did, with the US saying "this is bullshit, he's had his chance(s)."

Blix never found WMD in the places suggested by U.S. intelligence. After a little of that, you can see how he started to question the intelligence. Apparently we never did.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out.

There is no god. Thus, there would be no sorting.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
You left out the fact that we know (knew) that Hussein repeatedly stymied the weapons inspectors who were sent to ascertain whether the WMD continued to exist.

Yes, that fits into the knowledge category quite nicely. There are likely many other things that do; I make no claims my list was anything other than a few key points.

It was not simply a "give them more time" issue. Had Hussein allowed the inspections to continue apace from when they started in teh mid-1990s (or however long ago it was), rather than continually shucking jiving/dodging and weaving, it would not have come to the point it did, with the US saying "this is bullshit, he's had his chance(s)."

This part doesn't fit into the knowledge category, but instead into the opinion and analysis category. I'm not disagreeing, just pointing out where knowledge ends and opinion and belief begin, and noting that the analysis and opinion of the average voter in Spain, for example, is likely very different from the opinion and analysis of the average voter in Utah.