Fashion Board 11-2-03 - 12-09-03

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Sebby, that may just be the stupidest fucking thing I've ever read. I mean, seriously. IF you really feel that way, then do yourself and your wife and the world in general a favor. Get divorced, never remarry, and for God's sake, don't ever reproduce.

I can't count on my hand the number of my friends who are all trying desperately to put off the kid thing. Dude, its the end of the party. I don't have anything else to look forward to but having a good time. You take that away from me and I'm effectively rudderless... Its like last call, only its been a 17 year party. How can anyone be expected to embrace such a horrifying life change?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Not Me
Whose fault is the prison system? The men who set it up or the men who end up as inmates?

Same with life expectancy. Whose fault is that? The men who shorten their lives by smoking or the men who shorten their lives by consuming excessive amounts of drugs/alcohol or by getting into disputes with other men who happen to own guns? Admittedly, the disparity due to smoking/drugs/alcohol is narrowing, but so is the disparity in life spans.

Combat deaths I will give you. But remember that NOW and other feminist organizations have long advocated for women in the military and on the front lines. It was Newt Gingrich who said we cannot be in the trenches because we get "infections."

And none of what you said suggests that "men" are not the monolithic, world-ruling class of people about whom you can generalize so wildly? You feel you can say "men have so many advantages" and when the disadvantages men face are raised, you can respond "well, those are men's fault too"?

I won't go into women like Janet Reno perhaps having some participation in "setting up" the prison system. Nor will I discuss the educational system and the ways in which boys are being regularly short-changed as a purported response to sexism.

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally posted by str8outavannuys
GWNC: This might be an oldie, but I recently chuckled when someone referred to an odious woman as having worked for the University of North Toronto radio station.

. . .

If you don't get it, think about radio station call letters

that is indeed an oldie. a bit contrived, but not too bad.

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by purse junkie
Quit whining. You wanna be a woman in the work force? Cut your goddamned paycheck by 20% for no reason, get fired when you object to some assgrabbing decrepit partners' heavy breathing, then become an unemployable troublemaker when you complain. Jesus.

I'm mostly talking about law firms, and I think those kinds of behaviour are much less common in law firms than in most of the rest of the workplace.

But, even generally speaking, give me a break. That can't always be the excuse why women should enjoy a societal double standard. "I should be able to have all this choice and sexual power compared to my spouse, because I am screwed in the work force!" What the fuck is that?

And, frankly, I think those things that you talk about are suffered by the middle and lower middle classes, not by highly-educated, highly-compensated lawyers. Have those things really happened to you? Do you really get paid less than others in your situation?

Like others here, I've always expressed skepticism about claims that women make less for some egregious discriminatory reasons. They certainly make less, but it's because of the circumstances. It's because of hours, it's because of education, it's because of choices.

I won't go check now, but someone said that she made less than someone who had been with the employer for a while, while she had lateralled in. HELLO? Do you really not see how that could matter? Once you've been somewhere for ten years, you've demonstrated a devotion to your employer and shown them that you can be trusted. You've been doing your job for a while. You deserve more, and are worth it to your employer.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by greatwhitenorthchick
Some men do insist that their brides have no clitorises. (even though, yes, I know, it is women that often take it off).

Yes, it is some women who take it off. And even some women who insist that their daughters do the same.

Actually, what is your point? that actually women do rule the world? Or that the people who have the power to do shitty things to people suck regardless of gender.

My point is that generalizations about men based on the "fact" that they "rule the world" are pretty fucking stupid.

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
I will say that I know two women who are going through separations/divorces right now who previously did "nothing". I was shocked when I heard this because neither one of them has children. They're both in a position where they will have to generate their own incomes, and I think this is coming as a shock to them. One of them probably will go into personal training and will do very well at it, and the other wants to sell high-end luxury cars, though I'm not exactly sure how she plans on breaking into that. Their husbands, when they got married, didn't seem to have a problem with the arrangements and I think that both husbands could be described as workaholics. I don't think that they would have worked less if their wives were also working, though I think that their not being around contributed to the disintegration of their marriages.

I like to think that people make their own position in life. Society influenced these women to never work and never have kids. Essentially, to live a pretty pampered life. They've, for a while, had no major responsibilities aside from getting the Jag washed and getting their hair done. I think it sucks that society has programmed anyone to think that this is acceptable. Men, women, children, whatever.

But that's karma. Some people really bust their asses and have nothing. Others bust their asses and get somewhere. For most of society, the era when you can just do nothing and sit by the pool all day is over. If some are realizing that later than others have, I sympathize, but I'm loosing a lot less sleep over that than I am the hungry, sick and dying here and around the world.

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
My point is that generalizations about men based on the "fact" that they "rule the world" are pretty fucking stupid.

But that wasn't my point and surely you must have seen that. My point was that women don't rule the world and it bugs me when I hear jokes about it. It doesn't follow that I automatically think that "men" rule the world. Shitty people rule the world, if you want to know what I really think. Some of them (the majority - I don't think you can debate that) - are men. That is not to say that if a good man ruled the world (like the Dalai Lama for example), that I would be opposed to it. I heart the Dalai Lama and would love if he ruled the world.

If you want to use my post as a starting point for the things that bug you, go ahead, but don't frame it as a response to something I was saying.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by greatwhitenorthchick
If you want to use my post as a starting point for the things that bug you, go ahead, but don't frame it as a response to something I was saying.

So you can be nauseated by Bilmore's joke and throw the Taliban in his face, but I can't react to what you said?

I wasn't saying "women rule the world." I was particpating in a thread in which your comment arose.

Perhaps you should look back at my post -- I was not framing it as a response to what you said, but using it as a starting point for things that bug me. That I referenced a comment that you didn't make ("when I hear men rule the world") made that obvious, I thought.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
My point is that generalizations about men based on the "fact" that they "rule the world" are pretty fucking stupid.

I can confirm that they do not in fact rule the world.

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Fuck you.

Fuck you. My employer does a lot of mentoring and similar shit for women. It doesn't do anything for others. That sucks. And then I hear women, who make more money and have better career options than me, bitch about how bad things are for them. And I'm all "what the fuck? You make a quarter million dollars a year and vacation all over the world and you're pissed because our employer isn't doing more for you?" On the inside. On the outside, I just nod, because nobody wants to be the chauvenistic asshole.

I'm convinced that people will always complain about their situation and assume that others have it easier. Hell, look at me. But, at some point, you've got to admit that most of the workplace discrimination against professional women is gone, daddy, gone. Not all of it, sure. And I can't see a lot of it, because I am a guy. But it's not 1960 anymore. I'm amazed about a law firm actually paying a man more because of family status. It's sad that that still happens. But don't try to be all Rosa Parks about your experience in the workplace, unless you can honestly look yourself in the mirror and say that you're getting screwed.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
You feel you can say "men have so many advantages" and when the disadvantages men face are raised, you can respond "well, those are men's fault too"?

The fact is that men do have more power in this world and when you point to institutions that were set up by men being bad for men, what else is there to say about it?

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
I won't go into women like Janet Reno perhaps having some participation in "setting up" the prison system.

And for good reason. What is there to say about it?

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Nor will I discuss the educational system and the ways in which boys are being regularly short-changed as a purported response to sexism.

That is a valid point. Males are entering college in fewer numbers and that is going to be a real problem for society in the not too distant future. I agree that that problem needs to be addressed.


I really think this topic belongs on the Politics board and the fact that leagle doesn't complain about it only makes more certain it was the content of my post that she objected to.

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by dtb
You mean maternity leave after the actual recuperation time, I assume -- or would you have the woman just show up the day after (the day of?) she gets out of the hospital?

I mean a standard 12 week maternity leave, all paid. Men here get 6 weeks, paid. And don't take it, because the culture says that you can take a week or two, but it better not affect your overall hours.

Originally posted by dtb
Puh-leeze. Women are subjected to a double-standard every single fucking day at every single fucking company in every single fucking state of this country.

Does continuing to say that make it true? It sounds like you have some sort of victimization thing going on. Why don't you just say "men are evil!" and be done with trying to actually discuss this?

Originally posted by dtb
Women are "falling down on the job" if they stay home with their kids (or want to take a cut in pay or go part-time or whatever), or else they're just cold-hearted bitches who stay at work (why did you even HAVE kids if you're not going to be home with them?)

I hear statements like that from women far more than I hear then from men. Where I work, men are so emasculated with regard to gender politics that no one would ever say that. And I don't think that many think it, either.

Originally posted by dtb

No way a woman is going to make partner in a year she takes 6 months off. No way she's not going to have to take a year off her "seniority" if she takes six months off (and probably another year, just for good measure, to make her prove that she's not giving too much time to her family.)

At my firm, several women have made partner recently while on, recently returned from, or preparing to go on, an extended maternity leave.

Originally posted by dtb
Cry me a fucking river.

Likewise, sugar.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by mmm3587
I like to think that people make their own position in life. Society influenced these women to never work and never have kids. Essentially, to live a pretty pampered life. They've, for a while, had no major responsibilities aside from getting the Jag washed and getting their hair done. I think it sucks that society has programmed anyone to think that this is acceptable. Men, women, children, whatever.

But that's karma. Some people really bust their asses and have nothing. Others bust their asses and get somewhere. For most of society, the era when you can just do nothing and sit by the pool all day is over. If some are realizing that later than others have, I sympathize, but I'm loosing a lot less sleep over that than I am the hungry, sick and dying here and around the world.

Really? It was society? I actually wonder what influenced them to do so. Because the society I grew up in involved two grandmothers and a mother who all worked. If these women are from my generation (maybe a big if), it seems outdated to think that they were really being told not to learn a skill/trade/career and to assume that someone would come along and support them.

I guess I tend to agree with DS (and from your spelling of losing, I assume you are her) that the women who quit working once married and who don't have kids are kinda looking for a free ride. I think the same of men who do comparable things (an example, trust fund brats who would rather drain off their family's wealth than get a fucking job).

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by mmm3587
And, sure, I'm a whining white guy. I've had it pretty good, and I appreciate it. But, in the workplaces I've been in (all major law firms), I haven't seen women treated poorly as a group. I haven't seen minorities treated poorly as a group. I've seen individuals treated poorly, and I've seen those groups enjoy the benefits of policies and mentorship and programs.

Do you see the women and minorities (i) going out to lunch, dinner and drinks with all the right partners, (ii) being invited to the strip clubs with the clients, (iii) being made partner at the same rate as all those poor white guys who don't get to go to some lip-service retreat? Jesus Christ.

Still haven't been invited to a minority retreat. But I'm sure all 4 of us would have great fun.

TM

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by dtb
The women on this board do all the things you and others (namely, Bilmore) are saying (get up, go to work, slave, slave, slave, go home, etc.) but then ALSO are expected to do all the kid stuff too.

Most men wouldn't do it, because they'd be too busy whining about how hard they work, and they need a BREAK when they come home, dammit!

Most men would sooner slit their throats than stay home with their kids -- it would drive them batty. (Bond, schmond...)

This attitude really pisses me off. I work full-time. So does my spouse. We both take care of the kid. When one of us has to stay home, sometimes it's her, and sometimes it's me. All of this is hard, but I'm not asking for a medal or anything, because that's the way it is, and we both choose to work.

But the assumption that I'm doing less of the parenting just pisses me off. I get this in the workplace, from people who otherwise seem enlighted, and I just bite my tongue. I recognize that working mothers have a tough go of it, but some of them have spouses who don't work.

I know, you didn't mean me, you meant most men. Most people forget to add that caveat, though.